POINT BY POINT SUMMARY
Prepared by Rabbi P. Feldman of Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
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Bava Kama 85
BAVA KAMA 85 (3 Cheshvan) - dedicated l'Iluy Nishmas Malka bas Menashe (and
Golda) Krause, by her daughter, Gitle Bekelnitzky. Under both material and
spiritual duress, she and her husband raised their children in the spirit of
our fathers, imbuing them with a love for Torah and Yiddishkeit. Her home
was always open to the needy, even when her family did not have enough to
feed themselves.
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1) EVALUATION OF PAIN
(a) (Mishnah): We evaluate how much a person like this would
want to receive...
(b) Question: How do we evaluate pain when there is also
Nezek (he already receives compensation for losing the
limb)!
(c) Answer (Shmuel's father): We evaluate how much a person
like this would want to receive to have his leg or arm
cut off.
(d) Objection #1: That is too much, he would demand money
equal to all 5 damages!
(e) Objection #2: A normal person would not agree to have his
limb cut off for any sum of money!
(f) Correction: We evaluate how much a person like this would
want to receive to have his limb cut off if it was
dangling (and useless).
(g) Objection: That is too much, that also entails
embarrassment (that his limb will be fed to dogs)!
(h) Correction: We imagine that the king had decreed that his
limb must be cut off; we evaluate how much a person would
want to receive to have it cut off the way the damager
did this, as opposed to through a potion (painlessly).
(i) Objection: A normal person would not agree to cause
himself pain on condition to receive money!
(j) Correction: We imagine that the king had decreed that his
limb must be cut off; we evaluate how much a person would
pay to have it cut off through a potion, as opposed to
the way the damager cut it.
(k) Question: But Shmuel's father said we evaluate how much a
person like this would want to receive, not to pay!
(l) Answer (Rav Huna brei d'Rav Yehoshua): He means, the
victim receives from the damager what a man would pay to
the king (to have his limb cut off painlessly).
2) HEALING
(a) (Mishnah): Medical expenses - if Reuven hit Shimon, he
must cure him...
1. (Beraisa): If sores developed on account of the blow
and covered the wound, Reuven must heal him and pay
for his unemployment;
2. If the sores are not due to the blow, he is exempt
from healing him and unemployment;
3. R. Yehudah says, even if they are due to the blow,
he need only heal him, he is exempt from
unemployment;
4. Chachamim say, "(Just he will give) his
unemployment, and heal, he will heal (him)" - any
one liable for 1 of these is liable for both.
(b) Question: On what do they argue?
(c) Answer #1 (Rabanan): Whether Shimon is entitled to wrap
up the wound (to avoid pain of the cold, and Reuven
remains liable for sores that develop because of this).
1. Chachamim say, he is entitled to wrap up the wound,
and Reuven remains fully liable;
2. R. Yehudah says, he is not entitled to wrap up the
wound;
i. Still, Reuven must heal him - the double
language "Heal, he will heal" teaches this;
ii. He is exempt from unemployment - the Torah did
not repeat this.
(d) Objection (Rabah): If he is not entitled to wrap up the
wound, Reuven is exempt even from healing him!
(e) Answer #2 (Rabah): All agree, he is entitled to wrap up
the wound, but not excessively.
1. R. Yehudah says, since he is not entitled to wrap
excessively, Reuven is only liable to heal him (from
the double language), not for unemployment;
2. Chachamim say, since the Torah obligates Reuven to
heal him, he is also liable for unemployment, for
the Torah equates these.
3. R. Yehudah says, the Torah explicitly exempted him
from unemployment (in this case) - "Just (he will
give his unemployment)".
4. Chachamim say, that excludes if the sores are not
due to the wound.
(f) Question: According to the latter Chachamim (in the last
clause of the Mishnah), who equate the obligations of
healing and unemployment - why did the Torah use a double
language of healing?
(g) Answer: To teach as Tana d'vei R. Yishmael.
1. (Beraisa - Tana d'vei R. Yishmael): "Heal, he will
heal" - this teaches that doctors may heal.
(h) (Beraisa) Question: How do we know that If sores
developed on account of the blow and covered the wound,
he must heal him and pay for his unemployment?
(i) Answer: "Just he will give his unemployment, and heal, he
will heal".
1. Suggestion: Perhaps this applies even if the sores
are not due to the blow!
2. Rejection: "Just".
3. R. Yosi bar Yehudah says, "Just" teaches that even
if they are due to the blow, he is exempt.
i. [Version #1: He is fully exempt, as the latter
Chachamim.]
ii. [Version #2: He is only exempt from, as R.
Yehudah.]
(j) (Beraisa): Suggestion: Perhaps this applies even if the
sores are not due to the blow!
(k) Rejection: "Just".
(l) Question: If the sores are not due to the blow, why must
we learn from a verse?!
(m) Answer: Not due to the blow' means as follows.
1. (Beraisa): Shimon (the victim) disobeyed the doctor
and ate honey and sweet things, which are bad for a
wound, and dead skin arose on it. One might have
thought that Reuven (the damager) must heal him -
"Just" teaches, he is exempt.
2. If Reuven says 'I will cure you', Shimon can say- 'I
fear you, I want someone else'.
3. If Reuven says 'My relative will cure you for free',
Shimon can say 'A proper doctor demands wages.'
4. If Reuven says 'I will hire a doctor from afar for
you', Shimon can say 'He will return home, perhaps
he will not take proper responsibility for my
health".
5. If Shimon says 'Give me the wages of a doctor, I
will heal myself', Reuven can say 'You will heal
improperly, this will result in larger medical
expenses'.
6. If Shimon says 'Fix the wages of a doctor, and give
this to me to heal myself', Reuven can say 'You will
heal improperly, and people will think that I am
responsible for your condition.'
3) THE OTHER PAYMENTS
(a) (Beraisa): All (other 4 damages) are paid even when Nezek
is paid.
(b) Question: How do we know this?
(c) Answer #1 (Rav Zvid): "A wound in place of a wound" -
this teaches that one pays for pain even when Nezek is
paid.
1. Question: But we need that verse to teach that one
pays whether he damaged intentionally or
unintentionally, whether he was forced or acted
willingly!
85b---------------------------------------85b
2. Answer: If it only came for that, it should have
said 'A wound for a wound'; by saying "A wound in
place of a wound", it teaches both.
(d) Answer #2 (Rav Papa): "Heal, he will heal" - this teaches
that one pays for pain even when Nezek is paid.
1. Question: The verse teaches as Tana d'vei R.
Yishmael (to permit doctors to heal)!
2. Answer: To teach that, it would have said 'A doctor
will heal'; rather, it says "Heal, he will heal", to
obligate for pain when Nezek is paid.
3. Question: We used the double language above (to
obligate for sores)!
4. Answer: Had the Torah doubled the same word twice,
we would only lean as above; by using a different
word, the Torah also obligates for pain when Nezek
is paid.
(e) Question: It follows that the other damages can apply
even when there is no Nezek - what is the case?
(f) Answer: Pain - as the Mishnah says - he burned him with a
spit or nail, even on his fingernail, where no wound will
result;
1. Healing - he had a wound that was healing, and a
potent potion changed his skin to the color of
Tzara'as, and another potion is needed to restore
the color;
2. Unemployment - he took him to a room and locked him
in;
3. Embarrassment - he spit in his face.
(g) (Mishnah): Unemployment - we view what he would earn as
one who guards gourds...
(h) (Beraisa): Unemployment - we view what he would earn as
one who guards gourds;
1. Question: This is unfair, when he recovers, he will
have a better job, such as drawing water or running
errands!
2. No, it is fair - when he recovers, he is only fit to
guard gourds (e.g. a limb was cut off), he already
received compensation for the limb.
(i) (Rava): If Reuven cut off Shimon's hand, he pays for the
hand; regarding unemployment, we view Shimon as one who
guards gourds;
1. If he broke Shimon's leg, he pays for the leg;
regarding unemployment, we view Shimon as one who
guards the door;
2. If he blinded Shimon's eye, he pays for the eye;
regarding unemployment, we view Shimon as one who
grinds;
3. If he deafened Shimon's, he pays Shimon's full value
(for he cannot work any more).
(j) Question #1 (Rava): Reuven cut off Shimon's hand, broke
his leg, blinded his eye, and deafened him; no assessment
of Shimon's value was made in between - what is the law?
1. Do we say, it suffices to make 1 assessment?
2. Or - do we make a separate assessment for each
damage?
3. Question: What difference does it make?
4. Answer: Whether he must pay the pain and
embarrassment of each damage.
i. Granted, he need not pay the Nezek, healing and
unemployment of each - he already pays for his
full working value as if he killed him (and he
pays the medical expenses until he is healed
from everything);
ii. However, there was pain and embarrassment by
each damage, (perhaps) he must pay each.
(k) Question #2 (Rava): If you will say that we make only 1
assessment - what if assessments of Shimon's value were
made in between the damages?
1. Since individual assessments were made, he must pay
for each?
2. Or - since he did not yet pay, he only pays once for
all the damages?
i. This question is unsettled.
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