HOW DOES A WOMAN BECOME NIDA?
According to the Torah itself, in the past a woman would become nida when
she had bleeding (even a minute amount) accompanied by a particular physical
sensation . That physical awareness of the commencement of bleeding was a
necessary prerequisite to render the woman nida in those times. However,
nowadays we no longer can recognize those particular physical feelings that
were known to the women of those times when menstruating and therefore
this idea of a "feeling" or physical sensation (a "hargosho" in Hebrew) is
no longer applicable. You may read in various books on taharat hamishpocha
this idea about a hargosho, whereby they may mention that if a woman feels
such a hargosho, she must immediately make a bedika. However, since
nowadays we cannot recognize those feelings as being particularly related to
a menstrual flow, and women are not aware of these particular physical
sensations when they menstruate, it is generally accepted that women should
not do such additional bedikas .
The only thing that counts nowadays is having an actual flow of blood,
which is a substantial amount, or finding some staining on the undergarments
which are subject to many rules to determine whether or not the woman would
be considered nida (to be discussed later). Staining (very minimal
bleeding) would only render a woman nida according to the rabbonim (the
rabbis) and therefore there are many details as to exactly how and when a
woman becomes nida from a stain.
Nowadays a woman becomes nida when she has a substantial flow of blood
either at the time of her period or any other time, after she gives birth
(at which time she has a flow of blood for several weeks), or if she finds
even a minute amount of blood upon inserting internally a bedika cloth or
toilet paper or even a medical instrument. But this means actually
inserting something inside: it is not considered a bedika to wipe externally
with toilet paper or a cloth. Blood inside a discharge of mucous would
also be a problem if it is found upon an internal examination or even upon
toilet paper. Finding blood upon toilet paper immediately after urination
could be a problem (because the urination could disguise the feeling of a
hargosho) and a woman must ask a rav about that if such a problem occurs:
that is why women generally do not look at toilet paper when they wipe
themselves.
A woman should never joke and say that she is nida when she is not (even if
she is angry with her husband). In Jewish law a woman’s word is very much
trusted and therefore she must not make light of this responsibility: she
must not joke with such an important mitzva.
WHAT IS A BEDIKA EXACTLY?
As mentioned before, a bedika is an internal examination. It is generally
performed with a small, white, soft cotton cloth which should first be
inspected on both sides for any dirt, little threads etc. which might cause
confusion (ie. red threads which one could mistake for blood) and then it is
wrapped around the index finger and inserted into the vagina as far as it is
possible to go comfortably . It is then moved around gently , wiping the
inside of the vaginal area carefully, and upon removal it is looked at by
daylight to see if there are any stains on it.
The bedika cloth in Hebrew is called an "eyd" which means a witness. It is a
witness to the purity of the woman. It is said that angels collect these
cloths and present them to G-d in order to attest to the purity of the
woman and to the purity of her child.
Bedika cloths are generally available in one’s local mikvah.
Bedika cloths must be looked at in daylight rather than at night (but one
need not hold them up to direct sunlight: it is best to shade them a little.
(The same applies to stains on underwear). The cloth should be looked at to
see if there is any stain of an impure nature or a stain of a
questionable color which would require asking a rav about.
Please note: a bedika done with the finger without any cloth is not valid,
nor is a bedida done with toilet paper valid.
Also sometimes on a bedika cloth there is a tiny streak of some dirt that is
on an outer part of the cloth which did not even enter the vagina. If you
are sure that part did not go inside and it looks like the dirt is from an
external source, it can be disregarded. Sometimes there may be a tiny speck
of some color which is so small it is hard to even see: that is usually
considered nothing as well . If it is so small that the naked eye can barely
see it or determine what the color is, then it is usually nothing. But if
you see a very reddish dot on a cloth, even if it is tiny, if you see it is
truly red looking, then you must ask a Rav and it usually would render the
woman nida unless the rav says it is a thread or something like that. At
times pink or red threads are mixed in with the weave of the bedika cloth or
could come from outside and can cause confusion but if you are sure it is a
thread, you can disregard it as well. One should never tamper with a bedika
cloth but sometimes if you are positive what you are seeing is a thread, you
can very gently and lightly try to move the thread : if it is an actual
thread it will move to another area of the cloth and can be seen as an
actual thread. If it is blood, it may smear into the cloth or may not move
at all. But never try to remove a color from the cloth as that could affect
the correct judgment of a Rav.
HOW OFTEN SHOULD BEDIKAS BE MADE?
There are certain times when bedikas are necessary (ie. During the counting
of the seven clean days). But during the days when a woman is permissible
to her husband she should not make bedikas. The reason is because any blood
found on a bedika cloth (even a small amount) renders a woman nida even if
it is not the time for her period. Finding a small amount of blood on her
underwear or bed sheet does not make her nida. But on a bedika cloth which
is inserted internally, finding even a minute spot of blood would render
the woman nida.
PLEASE NOTE: if toilet paper or any colored cloth or anything else is
inserted internally either during the seven clean days or at any other
time, and even if there is no intention to do a real bedika, if blood is
found on that toilet paper or cloth, it creates a big shayla and may render
the woman nida. So be very careful when and how you make bedikas.
If you are not sure about something, call a rav before doing anything on
your own.
Please note as well: after marital relations, if your husband cleans himself
with a colored cloth, a white cloth or with toilet paper or napkins, if
he finds a blood stain at that time a rav must be consulted because marital
relations constitutes a bedika of sorts and it would therefore not make a
difference if the husband cleans himself with a colored garment or a white
garment. If blood is found (and the period did not commence) a rav must be
consulted to determine the woman’s status.
PLEASE ALSO NOTE: if a woman makes a bedika and somehow drops the cloth (ie.
in the toilet ) or loses it before she even gets a chance to look at, it is
considered as if she did not do a bedika and she would have to make a new
bedika.
If she glanced at the cloth and thought she saw a reddish or brownish color
and then she loses the cloth, she must consult a rav as to her status.
WHAT IF A WOMAN FINDS A BLOOD STAIN ON HER UNDERWEAR OR HER BED SHEETS OR
HER CLOTHING?
If the underwear is white or the sheets are white, then if the stain is
larger than the size of an American penny (the size is measured according
to the total area of the stain) the woman would generally be considered
nida.
However, if the stain is smaller than a penny, the woman would not be nida.
The reason is that there could be many reasons for staining: ie. Irritation
in the vagina, external skin irritations, hemorroids, insect bites, cervical
infection etc.Only bleeding from inside the womb itself renders a woman
nida.
If a stain is larger than a penny then it becomes more significant and more
likely to be from the womb. On underwear we do not add together different
stains: each stain is evaluated separately for its size.
Please note: a stain is measured according to those parts which are reddish
or dark brown and therefore it is possible for a woman to see a large stain
(larger than a penny) of a very pale brown color or even a clean looking
color, and inside that stain or on the outer edges could be other reddish
parts which would actually add up to less than a penny, and therefore the
woman would not be nida. The shape o f the stain does not matter: it could
be long, round, etc. The total area is measured, not the shape.
However, if underwear or sheets are colored (any color other than white)
then a stain larger than a penny would generally be okay as long as it is
not the usual time for her period or she does not have an actual flow of
blood (ie. the staining is not too much). Of course a real flow of blood
(more than simply staining or spotting) would cause her to be nida unless
the bleeding is definitely known to come from another cause (ie. Cervical
polyps etc.). The cervix is connected to the womb but bleeding from the
outer area of the cervix does not render a woman nida.However, if a woman
has constant spotting she must consult a rav. If a doctor ascertains that
there is a cervical injury or problem, then spotting could be attributed to
that.
This is why during the days she is permissible to her husband she should
wear colored underwear: it is not necessary to wear black underwear or very
dark colors. The reason is that if she experiences more than a little
staining and she has actual bleeding, if the underwear is so dark that she
could not see the color, she may have to assume she is nida. If she can see
the color and determine it is perhaps light brown or whatever, then she may
not have to assume she is nida. A rav should of course be consulted
concerning all of these matters.
PLEASE NOTE: If a woman finds a stain on her colored underwear or sees a
discharge which has a reddish hue to it (ie. sometimes she may discharge
semen or some mucous which has some brownish or reddish color mixed with
it), she should NOT wipe off the stain with toilet paper or any other cloth
to determine if it is actually blood or to see the actual color. She should
consult a rav if she is unsure about anything.
Also please NOTE: IF ONE SEES A STAIN EITHER ON HER UNDERGARMENTS, CLOTHING,
TOILET PAPER OR BODY, ONE SHOULD NEVER MAKE A BEDIKA. ONE SHOULD ALWAYS ASK
A RAV FIRST BECAUSE DOING A BEDIKA AND FINDING A REDDISH COLOR WOULD RENDER
HER NIDA , BUT OFTEN STAINS ON CLOTHING, UNDERWEAR OR TOILET PAPER WOULD BE
DECLARED CLEAN BY A RAV. SO ALWAYS ASK THE RAV: DO NOT DO A BEDIKA ON YOUR
OWN!
Concerning blood stains on her clothing: if the clothing are colored then
it is the same law as for colored underwear. If the clothing is white and
she finds a blood stain yet she did not find any stain on her underwear, a
rav should be consulted. However, if she does find a stain on white
clothing, even if her underwear are colored yet she also had some staining
on her underwear, she could be nida if the stain is larger than a penny and
also depending upon whether or not the clothing could have come in contact
with the vaginal area (and at times even sleeves could come in contact with
the vaginal area, ie. when wiping herself after using the toilet etc.) .
In all cases of doubt a rav should be consulted. It also depends whether or
not there is anything reliable to attribute a stain on clothing to: ie. if
she was cutting up meat and it may have splattered on her clothes etc.
Why is blood on a colored garment "acceptable"? By Torah law, only on white
(which is symbolic of purity) are we obligated to take notice of blood.
This is Torah law. We do not have to be holier than God asks us to be.
Many times bleeding may not actually be nida blood and therefore we wear
colored garments to make things less complicated and reduce the risk of
rendering oneself nida needlessly. Of course if a woman stains constantly
even when wearing colored undergarments, she must speak to a rav to
determine her status . Speaking with a rav is always helpful as very often
the rav can offer useful advice to help the woman retain her pure status as
much as possible.
WHAT ABOUT BLOOD STAINS FOUND ON THE LOWER BODY? (IE. THIGHS, LEGS)
If a stain which is not attributable to an actual cause (ie. scratching a
mosquito bite or some other injury etc.) is found on the inner thighs or
inner calves of the legs or on the upper toes, ankles or heels and is more
than the size of a penny, the woman would generally be considered nida. If
it is less than a penny, then the woman would not be considered nida. A rav
could be contacted in case of any doubt or if the woman feels this blood is
not blood from her uterus. Blood stains found on the outside of the legs
or thigh would generally not render a woman nida, nor would stains found on
the front or back surface of the thigh or calf as it would be unusual for
blood to fall on those parts of the body. The law for stains found on the
body is slightly different than the law for stains found on a garment. On
garments separate stains are not added together. On the body, however, if
there are several small stains then they are added together to see if the
size is still less than a penny. If so, it is fine. If not, she would
generally be considered nida. But there is room to be lenient even here if
the stains are of a questionable color (ie. a light brown) or if the
stains are all very separate and each one is less than the size of a penny.
But in all cases of doubt (for example, if a woman wears underwear
constantly day and night and sees no stain on them and finds a stain only on
her legs, it may be attributable to something else) a rav should be
consulted.
Please note; blood found on the hands is also a little different . Since
hands are always busy and there are many things that could cause a woman to
come in contact with blood during the day (ie. a nosebleed, a scratch,
cooking meat etc. etc.) then blood stains on hands are not added together .
As long as each stain is less than a penny, it is fine.
A bloodstain on the back of the hand or on the wrist or forearm would
generally not render a woman nida since those areas generally do not come in
contact with the vaginal area.
WHAT COLORS OF BLOOD RENDER A WOMAN DEFINITELY NIDA?
Red or black are nida colors, even if dried up particles. Gray can also be
a problem but is not a very common color generally to find . Pink is
usually a nida color but if it is very pale it should be shown to a rav for
determination . Sometimes it is really pale orange, or light brown. Those
colors are generally okay.
WHAT COLORS ARE DEFINITELY CLEAN?
Any green, blue, white or pale yellow color do not render a woman nida.
If a stain is light brown immediately upon exiting the body, it is
definitely clean. Very light brown on underwear is always ruled as kosher.
But if a stain on a bedika cloth looks pinkish and then becomes light
brown later, that has to be looked at by a rav. In general any shade of
brown on a bedika cloth should be shown to a rav.
WHAT COLORS ARE QUESTIONABLE AND REQUIRE THE DETERMINATION OF A RAV?
Very dark yellow (which has a slightly reddish or orange hue), other shades
of brown such as dark brown , and other pale colors which are hard to
determine exactly. Certain shades of blood do not signify internal bleeding
and would not render a woman nida. For example, the uterus may be healing
and there could be a brownish discharge. But it is sometimes hard to
determine the different shades of brown: there is a coffee color, chocolate
color, dark brown color etc. That is why a rav needs to be consulted.
Certain shades of brown are kosher and certain shades of brown are not.
A rav would be able to say if the shade of brown is pure or if it
indicates actual internal bleeding. Usually the redder or darker the color,
the more of a problem it is.
Many times two stains may look very similar to our eyes. A rav may declare
one stain clean and the other unclean. There can be very slight differences
which a rav is trained to observe. It is important to always ask when in
doubt.
In order not to feel embarrassed when asking a rav, you can put the bedika
cloths or underwear in an envelope with details as to which day or exam it
is from along with your phone number and put it in his mailbox, or you can
give it to his wife or have your husband bring it to the rav. If a person
lives far from a rav, it is good to call on the phone to determine whether
or not a shayla must actually be sent in and if so it can often be sent via
overnight mail etc.
WHAT ABOUT BLOOD STAINS FOUND ON TOILET PAPER?
Here the law is a bit different. Toilet paper can be a question and therefore it is best not to
look at toilet paper when wiping oneself. However, if a woman did notice
a stain on toilet paper, she should ask a Rav about it. Generally a small
stain (less than the size of a penny) is acceptable if the woman merely
wiped herself normally (without inserting the toilet paper internally).
During the time that a woman is permitted to her husband (after tevilah),
women who have problems with staining often line their underwear with toilet
paper (or panty liners) since a stain coming out directly on the toilet
paper lining would not allow the woman to become nida (unless of course it
is an actual flow of blood or her period really started). A small amount of
blood which comes out directly onto toilet paper which is lining one’s
underwear would not cause one to become unclean, even if the stain looks
quite large (as long as there is not a true flow of blood) . In any case of
doubt a rav should be consulted.
Some rabbonim permit a woman to use panty liners (same idea as toilet paper)
during her seven clean days and even if she finds a stain which is larger
than a penny (as long as it is not larger than the size of about three
quarters) then she would still remain clean. There are some rabbonim who did
not permit the use of panty liners during the seven clean days, but when a
woman has problems with excessive staining, then she is permitted to use
panty liners or to line her underwear with toilet paper. Please note,
however, that since blood can get absorbed into panty liners or pads, if
there is a considerable amount of blood then one must take into account the
idea that some could be absorbed in the pad and therefore one should consult
a rav and even show him the panty liners if one is unsure as to how much
staining is actually taking place. If the staining is excessive then it may
be considered bleeding and one would be nida.
The reason a larger size stain is permissible on toilet paper (or panty
liners made of a paper type of material) is because paper is not mekabel
tumah, it is not a material that becomes unclean, and therefore if a stain
is found on toilet paper lining the underwear, it is not a problem if it is
not an excessive size.
But it is different when wiping oneself right after urination: then one must
ask a rav if a stain is found. Some people have a custom to use colored
toilet paper rather than white but even there, if a stain is found one must
ask a rav. It is best to save the toilet paper in case the rav wants to see
the stain. Usually if the stain is less than a penny the Rav will say it is
okay. But in general, it is advisable not to look at toilet paper at all!
But if one did look and sees a stain, consult a rav . You should even save
the toilet paper, as he may want to see it. However, if the woman merely
wiped herself normally after urination and she found a stain smaller than a
penny, generally that would not be a problem.
Please note that during the clean days, when a woman must make a bedika, it
is better not to use pink colored toilet paper as little particles could
remain on her body and cause confusion on a bedika cloth.
If one sees a stain of blood on toilet paper the day one is expecting one’s
period to begin (dates are discussed later), it is best to consult a rav.
PLEASE NOTE: Do not use toilet papers for bedikas at all as that also
creates a problem and could render the woman unclean . Anyway, toilet paper
is not valid for a bedika.
WHAT MUST A WOMAN DO IF SHE BECOMES NIDA (EITHER THROUGH HAVING HER NORMAL
PERIOD or THROUGH STAINING OR WHATEVER)?
She must wait a minimum of five days (even if all bleeding stops before
that). Of course if bleeding exceeds five days she waits longer. PLEASE
NOTE: there are some sephardim who keep only four days, rather than five, so
if your husband is sephardic please find out if this is his custom.
There are also times that a Rav will allow a woman to keep only four days
(as long as all bleeding stops by then) if , for example, she is having
difficulty becoming pregnant because her ovulation takes place during the
seven clean days: sometimes going to mikvah one day earlier will allow her
to ovulate at the time of marital relations (as mentioned previously as
well). Therefore, at times the five day waiting period can be reduced to
four by a Rav.
A woman must make an internal exam (a bedika) on the fifth day (or fourth if
she is sephardic and all bleeding has stopped by then), or any day
thereafter that her bleeding stops completely. This bedika must be made
before sunset and the purpose of it is to determine if she is clean and
all slight internal oozing or staining has stopped, and then she is ready
to count her seven clean days starting from the next morning.
She must count seven consecutive clean days free from bleeding or any
staining which would render her nida. She should examine herself internally
twice a day on each of those seven days. The first three days free of
blood establish a chazaka in Hebrew which means it gives a strength to it
and therefore once three consecutive days go by without bleeding or staining
that would render her nida, the last four of the seven days are less
problematic.
On the conclusion of the seventh day, she must bathe and prepare herself
to immerse in the mikvah. Only after this ritual immersion is she permitted
to resume marital relations with her husband.
WHAT THINGS ARE FORBIDDEN DURING THE TIME A WOMAN IS NIDA, AND WHY?
Of course all marital relations in any manner are forbidden. The husband
and wife may not even touch each other. The reason for all the following
restrictions is so that the couple will not be tempted to be intimate with
each other since contact leads to intimacy. Anything which could even
slightly arouse one’s passions or bring one to thoughts of intimacy is not
allowed. The husbands in particular need constant reminders that their wives
are not available during these times.
The wife should not sing in front of her husband.
The husband cannot see any part of his wife’s body which is normally
covered. Of course the wife also should not see her husband undressed but
it is more difficult for a man if he sees his wife uncovered since a man’s
passions are more easily aroused.
A man should not sit on his wife’s bed unless she is out of town. It is
preferable that the woman not make the beds in front of her husband as
well.
The couple should not directly hand anything to each other (even a newborn
baby). The object or child can be handed through a third party or first put
down and then picked up by the other person. It is also not correct to
throw objects to one another directly, but one may throw an object straight
up in the air and the other person may catch it.
The husband may bring a baby to his wife to nurse in her bed but he may not
put the baby on her lap nor hand the baby directly to her. He may place the
baby on the bed near her however.
A woman may attend to all her
husband’s needs if he is seriously ill and unable to care for himself
properly even if it means handing things to him, but if she can avoid
handing him anything, it is of course preferable to do so .
She should avoid touching him directly if at all possible (ie. better to
touch him by holding a garment and touching him with the garment etc.) She
should avoid pouring water over him if possible. If her husband only has a
headache or a minor illness she may not hand things to him etc.
If a woman is seriously ill her husband may tend to her needs and may
possibly hand medications to her etc. but he should not touch his wife
directly if it is at all possible to avoid doing so. If it is unavoidable,
he should try to use a garment to touch her rather than direct contact.
Husband and wife must not sit closely together on one couch or on the same
car seat. If an object or a child is between them it is okay. The idea is
that they should not touch.
They should not eat alone at the same table unless something unusual (such
as different placemats or different salt shakers etc.) are on the table to
remind them she is nida or they change seats or something like that. That is
again to keep them conscious of the fact that she is nida so they will not
come to any sort of behavior which could lead to intimacy.
The couple may not eat from the same plate or drink from the same cup. A
husband may eat of his wife’s leftovers only if she left the room or if he
is not aware they are her leftovers or if they are transferred to another
plate or someone else ate of them in between. A woman may eat of her
husband’s leftovers.
Husband and wife must sleep on separate beds (beds that are not joined in
any way or touching at all: they should be far enough apart, preferably at
least arm’s length).
A woman must be extremely modest in front of her husband (ie. He should not
see her nursing a baby unless she is thoroughly covered: ie . with a blanket
etc.). The couple should not exhibit any sort of frivolous or flirtatious
behavior or talk either.
There are some men who find the nida time difficult and may react by
ignoring their wives or even by getting angry. Some women get nervous and
angry as well. But once the couple knows this is just the person’s way of
handling the relationship at this time they will not feel upset or insulted.
Because of the discipline and restraint required during the time of nida,
the time of reunion becomes a more romantic experience.
The couple experiences a feeling of accomplishment and spiritual unity.
WHAT IS A HEFSIK TAHARA AND HOW DOES A WOMAN COUNT 7 CLEAN DAYS?
On the fifth day from the start of her period (or fourth day, if the couple
are sephardic), or any day thereafter when bleeding has stopped completely,
before sunset the woman must wash her lower body (either in a bath or a
shower or in whatever way is available to her) to remove old stains etc. She
can douche if she wants to as well. Then it is preferable to wait ten
minutes or so to allow for drying. The bedika is then done either sitting on
the toilet or standing with one leg elevated on the edge of the toilet or
bathtub etc. This bedika is one of the most important and must be thorough.
She examines herself internally by inserting the bekida cloth into her
vagina as far as she can comfortably and then she rotates the cloth slowly
and checks in all folds and crevices to be sure there are no more stains
which could interfere with her counting the seven days. If no stains are
discovered, then she is ready to begin counting the seven clean days
starting from the next morning.
If she does find stains during the hefsik tahara exam, she may keep trying
to make bedikas until one comes out clean up, until sunset (meaning while it
is still daylight, before the sun goes down: around the time of lighting
Shabbos candles).
If the woman is clean and the hefsik tahara is fine, there is a custom to
then insert another prechecked bedika cloth before sundown and leave it in
until it is dark. This is called a moch d’chok exam. It is then removed and
may be examined by artificial light: if it looks clean it may be discarded.
If the woman is unsure about the color, she must save the cloth to be
examined the next morning by daylight .
Any questionable color would have to be shown to a rav. If the cloth is
clean then she can begin counting the seven clean days from the next
morning. This extra cloth is actually to determine beyond a doubt that
bleeding has really ended.
If she omits inserting this second bedika cloth it is okay, but if she had
an actual flow of blood that day then that additional cloth assumes more
importance. If she had to try several times in a row to do bedikas before
finding a clean color, it is not absolutely necessary to insert another
cloth (the moch d’chok) if she finds it difficult or irritating to do so,
but many women like to do so in order to feel assured that all bleeding has
stopped.
It is a custom to insert this additional cloth: a praiseworthy custom and
part of the proper and careful observance of taharat hamishpocha, but not
an absolute requirement to the counting of the seven clean days. If that
cloth was forgotten or omitted it does not make the seven clean days
invalid, whereas omitting a hefsek tahara exam does make affect the counting
of the seven clean days.
If a stain is found of a questionable color on this second (moch d’chok)
cloth it must be shown to a rav as with any other questionable bedika cloth.
If the woman attempted during the day (ie. around noon time for example) to
make a hefsik tahara exam and it was clean and then the rest of the day she
had no flow of blood and somehow she was unable to or forgot to check
again closer to sundown, that initial exam could count as her hefsik tahara
exam.
If a woman was unable to make any bedika during the day and the first bedika
she made was after shekia (the time for lighting the Shabbos candles) that
is fine as long as she is within the 18 minutes from shekia time to sunset.
If she makes a bedika after sunset, then a rav must be consulted: it
depends upon how many minutes after shekia, if this was the first bedika
done after shekia, whether there was any bleeding that day or not, etc. etc.
But never assume that a bedika is made too late and the woman would have to
wait until the next day. Always ask a competent rabbi.
After a succesful hefsik tahara exam, the woman should change to clean white
underwear which she must wear during the time that she is counting the seven
clean days.
(If she is somewhere and she is unable to get white underwear, she may use
clean lightly colored underwear but in general white underwear must be
used). If a woman does not sleep with underwear she must use clean white
sheets on her beds and preferably a white nightgown.
She then begins from the morning after the hefsik tahara exam to count 7
consecutive days free of bleeding or staining which would render her nida.
She should check herself twice each day (once in the morning and one in the
afternoon before and as close to sunset as possible). Each day she should
say aloud which day it is so she does not lose track.