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1) WHY CHEESE OF NOCHRIM IS FORBIDDEN (cont.)

(a) (Rava): Both can be derived from our Mishnah:

1. (Mishnah): R. Yehoshua said, because (Nochrim) curdle it in (Peresh of) stomachs of Neveilos, and R. Yishmael asked, even Peresh of an Olah is permitted;

i. We learn that even if it is forbidden to benefit from an animal, its Peresh is permitted.

2. (Mishnah): R. Yehoshua said, because they curdle it in stomachs of calves offered to idolatry, and R. Yishmael said, if so, it should be forbidden to benefit from it;

i. This implies that Peresh of calves offered to idolatry is forbidden.

(b) Question: Why didn't R. Yishmael ask, it should be permitted, because the forbidden ingredient (Peresh) is not intact!

1. Chachamim permit benefit from Muryas of Nochrim, because (even if it contains wine,) the forbidden ingredient is not intact

(c) Answer: Since the Peresh curdles the milk, it is considered as if it is intact.
(d) (Mishnah): He diverted him to another matter...
(e) Question: What does it mean "Ki Tovim *Dodecha* mi'Yayin"?
(f) Answer (Rav Dimi): Yisrael says that laws of Hash-m's dear ones (Chachamim) are dearer to them than mid'Oraisa laws.
(g) Question: Why did he ask him about this verse?

1. Answer (R. Shimon ben Pazi): He intended for the beginning of the verse - "Yishakeni mi'Neshikos Pihu", i.e. R. Yishmael should Chashok (seal) his lips and not ask (why cheese of Nochrim is forbidden).
2. Question: Why shouldn't he ask?
3. Answer (Ula): It was a new decree, we do not reveal the reason (for a year)

(h) Question: What is the reason for the decree?
(i) Answer #1 (R. Shimon ben Pazi): Perhaps a snake drank from (and poisoned) it.

1. Question: Why didn't he tell him?
2. Answer: For Ula's reason.
3. (Ula): In Eretz Yisrael, they do not reveal the reason for a new decree for year, lest someone disagree and not accept it.

(j) Objection (R. Yirmeyah): If so, dry cheese should be permitted!

1. (R. Chanina): If something was exposed, and it dried, it is permitted - if it contained venom, it would not dry properly;
2. If (wine or beer) was exposed, and it was aged, it is permitted - if it contained venom, it would not age properly.

(k) Version #1 -Rashi - Answer #2 (to Question (k) - R. Chanina): (Even though milk of Tamei animals cannot be made into cheese,) there are always drops of milk in cheese, perhaps the drops are from Tamei animals.
(l) Version #2 - Tosfos - Answer (R. Yirmeyah): There are always drops of milk in cheese, perhaps there is venom in the drops.
(m) Answer #3 (Rashi; Tosfos - Answer #2 - Shmuel): They curdle the milk in the *skin of* stomachs of Neveilos.

1. Question: This implies that if they would use the contents of the stomach itself (i.e. the Peresh) of Neveilos, it would be permitted - but Shmuel taught otherwise!
2. Question (Mishnah): A stomach of (an animal of) a Nochri or of a Neveilah is forbidden.

i. Question: (Why are these considered two things?) The animal of a Nochri is a Neveilah (even if he slaughtered it)!
ii. Answer (Shmuel): The Mishnah means, an animal slaughtered by a Nochri is a Neveilah, its stomach is forbidden.

3. Answer: Shmuel explains both Mishnayos; that Mishnah was taught before R. Yehoshua retracted; our Mishnah is after he retracted (on account of R. Yishmael's proof from Peresh of an Olah).

(n) Answer #4 (or #3 - Rav Malkiya): They use lard of pigs to smooth the cheese.
(o) Answer #5 (or #4 - Rav Chisda): They use vinegar to curdle.
(p) Answer #6 (or #5 - Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak): They use sap of Orlah to curdle.

1. Suggestion: This is like R. Eliezer.
2. (Mishnah - R. Eliezer): If one uses sap of Orlah to curdle, it (the cheese) is forbidden, because sap is considered fruit.
3. Suggestion: This is like R. Eliezer.
4. Rejection: No, it is even like R. Yehoshua;

i. R. Yehoshua only argues regarding sap of the wood, he admits that sap (i.e. secretions of) fruit are considered fruit.

5. Support (Mishnah - R. Yehoshua): If one uses sap of leaves or the roots (of Orlah) to curdle, it is permitted; if he uses sap of unripe figs, it is forbidden, for it is fruit.

(q) Question: According to Rav Chisda and Rav Nachman, it should be forbidden to benefit from cheese of Nochrim (because it is forbidden to benefit from the curdling agent)!
(r) This is left difficult.
(s) (Rav Nachman brei d'Rav Chisda): "L'Rei'ach Shemanecha Tovim" - a Chacham is compared to a flask of fragrant oil;

1. If the flask is open (the Chacham teaches others), it gives off a nice scent; if not, not.
2. (If he teaches others,) hidden things are revealed to him - "Alamos Ahevucha" - we read this as 'Alumos' (hidden things).
3. Also. the angel of death loves him - we read it as 'Al Maves Ahevucha';
4. Also, he inherits this world and the world to come - we read it as 'Olamos'.

(a) (Mishnah): The following things of Nochrim are forbidden to eat, but it is permitted to benefit from them: milk milked by a Nochri without a Yisrael watching, their bread and oil;

1. [Rebbi and his Beis Din permitted oil - Rashi deletes this from the text, oil was permitted (after the Mishnah) by R. Yehudah *Nesi'ah*, the grandson of Rebbi.]
2. Cooked foods and pickled foods in which wine or vinegar is often put;
3. Diced Tiryas (a Kosher fish), brine (unless a Kalbis fish swims in it), Chilek (fish that are late to grow fins and scales), Koret (cut piece; Aruch - seed; Me'iri - stalk) of Chiltis (a spice), and Shalkundis salt (these will be explained later).

(b) (Gemara) Question: What is the concern regarding milk?

1. Suggestion: Perhaps he switched it with milk of a Tamei animal.
2. Rejection: (This would be obvious -) milk of a Tahor animal is white, milk of a Tamei animal is green!
3. Suggestion: Perhaps he mixed in milk of a Tamei animal.
4. Rejection: We could test this by trying to curdle it!

i. Milk of a Tahor animal curdles, milk of a Tamei animal does not curdle.

(c) Answer #1: Indeed, one who wants to make cheese can buy milk from a Nochri; if it curdles, it is Tahor;

1. The Mishnah forbids putting it in food (or drinking it).
2. Question: We can test it by trying to curdle some of it!
3. Answer: In curdling (even pure Tahor milk), some (liquid) whey remains, so we will not know if some Tamei milk was mixed in.

(d) Answer #2: Even one who wants to make cheese may not buy milk from a Nochri - some whey remains between the cracks (after curdling), perhaps this is from Tamei milk that was mixed in.
(e) (Mishnah): Bread.
(f) (Rav Kahana): *Beis Din* did not permit bread.
(g) Suggestion: This implies that there is a Chacham that permits bread!
(h) Version #1 - Confirmation: Correct! Rav Dimi said, Rebbi was once in a field, a Nochri brought him a Se'ah of bread baked in a big (baker's) oven;

1. Rebbi: This is beautiful bread, why did Chachamim forbid it?!
2. Question: They forbid it on account of intermarriage!
3. Answer: He meant, why did Chachamim forbid it even in the field (where there is no concern for intermarriage)?!

(i) Rejection: People understood from this that Rebbi permits bread, but this was wrong.
(j) Version #2 (Rav Yosef): Rebbi was once in a place where there was not enough bread for the Talmidim.

1. Rebbi: Is there no baker here?!
2. People understood from this that Rebbi permits bread of a Nochri baker;
3. This was wrong, Rebbi referred to a Yisrael baker.

(k) (R. Chelbo). Even the opinion that permits bread of a Nochri baker, he only permits where there is no Yisrael baker.
(l) (R. Yochanan). Even the opinion that permits bread of a Nochri baker, he only permits (some say - where there is no Yisrael baker) in the field, but not in the city, on account of intermarriage.
(m) Eibo was eating bread of a Nochri in the field, by the borders.

1. Rava: Do not recite teachings in his name, for he is eating bread of a Nochri (i.e. he is not a Chaver).