Ask A Question on the daf

Previous daf

1) "MECHUSAR BEGADIM" (cont.)

(a) Question: R. Avuha gave a source for Mechusar Begadim; what is the source that Shtuyei Yayin is Mechalel Avodah in an Avodah where a Zar does not incur Misa ?
(b) Answer: We learn a Gezerah Shavah "Chukah-Chukah" from Mechusar Begadim.
(c) Question: But the Tana learned from "U'Lehavdil..."!
(d) Answer: That was before he learned the Gezerah Shavah.
(e) Question: But the Tana learned Mechusar Begadim from Shtuyei Yayin!
(f) Answer: He meant, what is the source that the laws of Shtuyei Yayin, Mechusar Begadim and one who did not wash are all the same (i.e. they are Mechalel Avodah in all Avodos)?

1. He answered, we learn from "Chukah-Chukah".

(g) Question: If so, what do we learn from "U'Lehavdil..."?
(h) Answer: We learn that it is forbidden to give rulings after drinking.

1. Rav would not teach after drinking on Yom Tov, until the next day, on account of intoxication.

(i) Question: But we have another source for Mechusar Begadim!

1. "V'Nasenu Benei *Aharon ha'Kohen*" - Aharon must be like a (proper) Kohen Gadol, if he served in garments of a regular Kohen, the Avodah is Pasul.

(j) Answer: From there, we would only know about Avodos that Me'akev Kaparah (atonement).
(k) Question: But we have yet another source for Mechusar Begadim!
(l) "V'Arechu Benei Aharon ha'Kohanim" - the Kohanim must be in their (proper) Kehunah - if a regular Kohen served in the garments of the Kohen Gadol, the Avodah is Pasul.
(m) Answer: If we only learned from "V'Nasenu...", one might have thought that Avodah with too few garments is Pasul, but extra garments are not Mechalel Avodah - "V'Arechu..." teaches, also this is Posel.

(a) (Beraisa): If the Bigdei Kehunah were dragging on the floor, or too high off the ground (too short), or worn, they are Kosher;
(b) If a Kohen wore at once two pairs of Michnesayim (pants), or two Avnetim (belts), or was wearing one garment too little or too many, or if he had a bandage under his garment, the garments were dirty with mud or torn, he is Mechalel Avodah.

(c) (Shmuel): If the Bigdei Kehunah were dragging on the floor, the Avodah is Kosher; if they were too high off the ground, it is Pasul.
(d) Question (Beraisa): If they were too high off the ground, it is Kosher!
(e) Answer (Rami bar Chama): If the garments are long enough, but the Avnet holds them up too high, it is Kosher; if the garments themselves are too short, it is Pasul.
(f) (Rav): Whether they are too long or too short, the Avodah is Pasul.
(g) Rav Huna's roommate: Did Shmuel really say 'If the garments were dragging, the Avodah is Kosher; if they were too high, it is Pasul'?

1. The Beraisa says, if they were too high, it is Kosher!

(h) Rav Huna: Rami bar Chama already answered that (if they are too high because the Avnet holds them up, it is Kosher; if the garments themselves are too short, it is Pasul).
(i) Question: (Rav said that whether they are too long or too short, the Avodah is Pasul; the Beraisa is Machshir both; we can explain the case of too short as Shmuel did, but) how can you answer for Rav (the case of too long)?

1. Suggestion: The case of too long is when the Avnet holds them up to the proper length.
2. Rejection: If so, we must consider being held up like being cut to size;

i. If so, when they are too short (even if they are just being held too high, it is as if they are cut too short,) the Avodah should be Pasul!

(j) Answer (R. Zeira): Rav explains that the Beraisa discusses one case - if the Bigdei Kehunah were so long that they would drag on the floor, but the Avnet kept them up, the Avodah is Kosher.
(k) (R. Yirmeyah mi'Difti): Tana'im argue about Bigdei Kehunah that are too long and were not held up.

1. (Beraisa #1): "Al Arba Kanfos Kesusecha" - but a three-cornered garment is exempt from Tzitzis.

i. Suggestion: Perhaps this only excludes a five-cornered garment!
ii. Rejection: "Asher Techaseh Bah" includes a five-cornered garment, therefore, "Arba" excludes three (-cornered garments).
iii. Question: Why learn this way, and not oppositely?
iv. Answer: A five cornered garment has four corners, a three cornered garment does not.

2. (Beraisa #2): "Al Arba Kanfos Kesusecha" - but a three or five-cornered garment is exempt from Tzitzis.
3. Suggestion: The Tana'im argue whether or not we ignore something extra.

(l) Rejection: No, all agree that we do not ignore it;

1. The first Tana expounds "Asher Techaseh Bah" to obligate a five-cornered garment
2. Question: What does the second Tana learn from this?
3. Answer: It obligates a blind person's garment.

i. (Beraisa): "U'R'isem Oso" - this excludes a night garment;
ii. Suggestion: Perhaps it rather excludes a blind person's garment!
iii. Rejection: "Asher Techaseh Bah" includes a blind person's garment, therefore, "U'R'isem Oso" excludes a night garment.
iv. Question: Why learn this way, and not oppositely?
v. Answer: It is more reasonable to learn this way, because other people see (Techeiles on) a blind person's garment, but no one sees a night garment.

4. The first Tana learns this from "Asher".
5. The second Tana does not expound "Asher".

(a) (Beraisa): "Vad" - this teaches that the garments must be linen, new, twined, the threads must be six-fold, and Chulin garments should not be worn with them.
(b) Question (Abaye): I understand that they must be linen - but they need not be new!

1. (Beraisa): If they are worn, the Avodah is Kosher.
2. Counter-question (Rav Yosef): How do you understand 'the threads must be six-fold' - "Vad" connotes, alone (single-stranded)!

(c) Answer to both questions (Rav Yosef): The Beraisa means, garments which are called "Vad" (i.e. those of a regular Kohen) should be linen, new, twined, the threads must be six-fold, and Chulin garments should not be worn with them;

1. Some of these conditions are Me'akev, others are not.

(d) Question: What is the source that "Vad" means linen?
(e) Answer #1 (R. Yosi b'Rebbi Chanina): It means, something that grows individually (one stalk from one seed).

1. Question: Perhaps it is wool (which comes off the sheep in individual strands)!
2. Answer: Strands of wool split and become doubled.
3. Question: Linen (before it is spun) also split!
4. Answer: They only split when they are beaten, not on their own.

(f) Answer #2 (Ravina): "Pa'arei Pishtim Yihyu Al Rosham...Lo Yashgeru ba'Yaza".
(g) Question (Rav Ashi): If so, how did we know the law before Yechezkeil said this verse?

1. Counter-question (Ravina): "Kol Ben Nechar Erel Lev v'Erel Basar Lo Yavo El Mikdashi" - (a Rasha or Arel may not enter the Mikdash) -- how did we know the law before Yechezkeil?

(h) Answer to both questions (Ravina): You must say, it was a tradition from Moshe from Sinai, Yechezkeil wrote a verse that alludes to it.
(i) Question: What do we learn from "Lo Yashgeru ba'Yaza"?
(j) Answer (Abaye): Kohanim do not wear the Avnet in a place where people Mezi'ah (sweat).

1. (Beraisa): They do not wear the Avnet below the loins or above the elbows, rather, even with the elbows.

(k) (Rav Ashi): Huna bar Noson was once in front of the Persian king, Huna's belt was too high. The king lowered it to his elbows, and told him 'You are "Mamleches Kohanim v'Goy Kadosh" (therefore, you must conduct like Kohanim, not to gird belts where you sweat).
(l) (Ameimar): "V'Hayu Melachim Omnayich" - was fulfilled with Huna bar Noson.