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1) IS A MOAVIS PERMITTED?

(a) Doeg asked as above; they were silent. Doeg was about to announce that David was forbidden.
(b) Question: "Amasha, the son of a man, whose name is Yisra ha'Yisraeli, that had relations with Avigayil Bas Nachash"; elsewhere, he is called "Yisra ha'Yishmaeli"!
(c) Answer (Rava): This teaches that he girded his sword as a Yishmaeli, and said, whoever does not accept this law, will be pierced with a sword: 'I learned from Shmuel, an Amoni is forbidden, not an Amonis; a Moavi, not a Moavis.
(d) Question: Is one really believed to teach a law in such a case?

1. (R. Aba): A Chacham that taught a law before a case came up, we heed him; if he did not teach it until the case came up, we do not heed him.

(e) Answer: Yisra was believed, since Shmuel and his Beis Din were around (the law was easily verifiable).
(f) The question remains (the women should have gone out to greet the women!)
(g) Answer #1: The honor of the king's daughter is (to stay) inside.
(h) Answer #2 (Chachamim of Eretz Yisrael): "They said to him, where is your wife Sarah?" (it is praiseworthy that she stayed in the tent).
(i) The following Tana'im also argued on the source that a Moavis is permitted.

1. (Beraisa - R. Yehudah): An Amoni is forbidden, not an Amonis; a Moavi, not a Moavis; R. Shimon says, "Because they did not go out ..." - it is the way of a man ...

(j) (Rava): "You opened my binds" - David said to Hash-m, 2 binds which were on me, you opened - Rus the Moavis, and Na'ama the Amonis.
(k) (Rava): "... Your wonders and thoughts are upon us" - not upon me.

1. This teaches, Rechavam sat in David's lap, and David told him that these 2 verses were said for me and you.

(l) (Rava): "Then I said, I have come; it is written in a Sefer about me" - David said, when I was anointed, I thought that my grandeur was just starting; I did not realize, it was already written in the Torah about me.

1. "(Lot's daughters) that were found"; and it says, "I found David my servant".

(a) (Ula, citing R. Yochanan): The daughter of a converted Amoni may marry a Kohen.
(b) Question (Rava Bar Ula): Who is this as?

1. Suggestion #1: If as R. Yehudah - but he says, the daughter of a convert is like the daughter of a Chalal!
2. Suggestion #2: If as R. Yosi, the law is obvious - he says that even the daughter of 2 converts may marry a Kohen!

i. Suggestion: If you will say, this only applies to converts that may marry Yisraelim, but not converts that are forbidden - what is the source to make such a distinction?
ii. Answer: He learns from the child of a Kohen Gadol from a widow.
iii. Objection: We cannot learn from there - it is forbidden for them to have relations!
iv. Answer: The child of a Chalal shows that the children can be forbidden even when they were conceived in a permitted way!
v. Objection: We cannot learn from a Chalal, since he himself was conceived through sin!
vi. Answer: A Kohen Gadol will prove that this is not needed to make the children forbidden.

A. We may learn from a Tzad ha'Shaveh (common side). Each case (Kohen Gadol and Chalal) has something not found in the other - what us common, is that they are unlike the majority of the congregation, and their daughters are forbidden to Kohanim - we may learn that this is also true of the daughter of an Amoni!

vii. Rejection: We cannot learn - both a Kohen Gadol and Chalal are cases involving sin (but there is no such side by an Amoni's daughter)!

(c) Suggestion (Rava Bar Ula): Perhaps your law was by an Amoni that married a Bas Yisrael - even though relations are forbidden, the daughter may marry a Kohen.
(d) Answer (Ula): Correct! The following shows that R. Yochanan spoke in such a case.
(e) (Ravin, citing R. Yochanan): The daughter of a converted Amoni or 2nd generation Mitzri is permitted (to a Kohen); Reish Lakish says, she is forbidden.

1. Reish Lakish learns from a Kohen Gadol and a widow.
2. R. Yochanan says she is permitted.

i. R. Zachai taught in front of R. Yochanan: "He will marry a virgin from his nations" - this includes a convert Mechunah (whose parents come from the same nation).
ii. Version #1: R. Yochanan: I learn, "His nations - from his nations" to permit a virgin that comes from 2 nations, and you only learn Mechunah?!

(f) Question: What are the 2 nations?

1. Suggestion: If an Amoni that married an Amonis - these are considered 2 nations because the men are permitted and the women are forbidden - but this is as R. Zachai!

(g) Answer: Rather, it is an Amoni that married a Bas Yisrael.
(h) Version #2: R. Yochanan responded, 'I learn, "His nations - from his nations" to permit a virgin that comes from 2 nations, and from a nation that has in it 2 nations, and you only learn Mechunah?!
(i) Question: According to this version - how does R. Yochanan learn that the daughter of a 2nd generation Mitzri is permitted?

1. Suggestion: He learns from an Amoni that married a Bas Yisrael.
2. Objection: But there, the females are permitted!

i. Suggestion: We see from the case of a 2nd generation Mitzri that married a 2nd generation Mitzris, that the child is permitted, even though females (Mitzriyos) are forbidden - this proves, this factor is irrelevant!
ii. Objection: But there, relations are permitted!
iii. Answer: The case of an Amoni that married a Bas Yisrael proves that even when relations are forbidden, the child is permitted ... (we learn from a Tzad ha'Shaveh).

(j) (Rav Yosef): I had heard Rav Yehudah say, "His nations - from his nations", and I did not understand - (now, I understand).
(k) (Rav Shmuel Bar Yehudah): R. Zachai taught this in front of R. Yochanan: 'An Amonis is permitted, her son from an Amoni is forbidden, her daughter from an Amoni is permitted;

1. This applies after they converted; but her daughter from an Amoni is forbidden'.

(l) R. Yochanan: Leave the Beis Medrash!

1. I agree, an Amonis is permitted - Amoni, not an Amonis.
2. I also agree, her son from an Amoni is forbidden, since he is an Amoni.
3. Question: You said, 'Her daughter from an Amoni is permitted' - to whom?

i. Suggestion: If to Yisrael - her mother is permitted, all the more so the daughter!

4. Answer: Rather, to a Kohen.
5. Question: You said, 'This applies after they converted; but her daughter from an Amoni is forbidden' - to what does this refer?

i. Suggestion: If an Amoni that married an Amonis - that is a convert Mechunah!

6. Answer: Rather, an Amoni that married a Bas Yisrael - leave the Beis Medrash!

(a) (Mishnah): A Mitzri or Edomi is only forbidden ...
(b) Question: How do Chachamim challenge his Kal v'Chomer?
(c) Answer #1 (Rabah Bar Bar Chanah): Arayos disproves the Kal v'Chomer - they are only forbidden until 3 generations, and males and females are forbidden!

1. Question: This is not a challenge - Arayos are Chaivei Krisus!
2. Answer: We see that even female Mamzerim are forbidden, even though they are not Chaivei Krisus!
3. Question: You cannot learn from Mamzerim - they are always forbidden!
4. Answer: We learn from a Tzad ha'Shaveh - by Arayos and Mamzerim, both males and females are forbidden - the same applies to Mitzrim.
5. Objection: The Tzad ha'Shaveh is invalid, since both sources involve Chaivei Krisus.

(d) Answer #2: Rather, Chachamim ask from a Chalal which results from Chaivei Ase, as R. Eliezer Ben Yakov.
(e) Question: What did R. Shimon answer, 'No, rather...'?
(f) Answer: 'I do not hold as R. Eliezer Ben Yakov; you that hold as him - I received my law on tradition'.
(g) (Beraisa - R. Shimon): - I received my law on tradition; also, the verse supports me - "Sons" - and not daughters.
(h) (Beraisa - R. Shimon): "Sons" - and not daughters; R. Yehudah says, "Children that will be born to them, the 3rd generation..." - the verse ascribes (the prohibition) to birth (to the mother - if she is permitted, so are her children)!
(i) (R. Yochanan): If R. Yehudah did not say, the verse ascribes to birth, he could not defend himself.

1. R. Yehudah holds that converts are part of the congregation of Yisrael - if a Mitzris is permitted, whom will a Mitzri Sheni (a 2nd generation Mitzri) marry to purify his seed?!