Ask A Question on the daf

Previous daf

1) USING A KELI SHARES FOR THE WATER

(a) Question: Why do we fill up a utensil which is not a Keli Shares before Shabbos?
(b) Answer (Zeiri): Our Tana adopts two positions which would cause the water to become Kadosh in the Keli and subsequently be Pasul through Lina on Shabbos night.

1. There is no upper limit to the amount of water used for the Nisuch (hence the Keli Shares would be Mekadesh since the greater amount of water is still the "proper" amount for the Keli Shares).
2. The Keli Shares is Mekadesh even unintentionally.

(c) Chizkiyah subscribes to the first position but says that the second position cannot be derived from our Mishnah.

1. It is possible that the Keli Shares may not be Mekadesh unintentionally.
2. However, we could not use a Keli Shares owing to a Gezeirah lest these waters be confused with waters which were put in the Keli Shares intentionally.

(d) R. Yanai citing R. Zeira explains how the Mishnah could reject both the first and second position (ie. there *is* an upper limit to the amount of water, and that a Keli Shares is Mekadesh even unintentionally) and still prohibit this water lest people think it was drawn for Kidush Yadayim (which could be any amount).

(a) Question: Why is exposed water Pasul for Nisuch given that it can be filtered from any venom!?

1. Answer: Our Mishnah presumably rejects the position of R. Nechemyah.
2. He holds that we may rely on filtering to permit exposed wine.

(b) Answer: Even according to R. Nechemyah, this wine/water is Pasul for Nisuch owing to the stricter standard regarding bringing water to the Mizbeach than permitting such wine to a person.

1) The Chalil could be played for five or six days of Sukos.
2) This refers to the Chalil of Simchas Beis HaShoevah which does not override Shabbos or YomTov.

3) SHOEVAH OR CHASHUVAH

(a) (Mar Zutra) There is a basis for either word, Shoevah and Chashuvah, to appear in our Mishnah.
(b) Shoevah derives from the Pasuk Ush'avtem.
(c) Chashuvah derives from the fact that the Shitin are very important, originating in Creation.

4) CHALIL ON SHABBOS AND YOMTOV

(a) (R. Yosi b. Yehudah) Chalil overrides Shabbos.
(b) (Chachamim) It does not even override YomTov.
(c) (R. Yosef) The above Machlokes revolves around whether Shir is primarily with a Keli (the playing is Avodah) or primarily with one's mouth (the playing is not Avodah, and does not override).
(d) All would agree that Simchas Beis HaShoevah is not Avodah, hence our Mishnah (that the Chalil does not override Shabbos or YomTov).

(a) We find that Rebbi and R. Yosi b. Yehudah argue over the Kashrus of a wooden Keli Shares.

1. Their argument seems to revolve around whether or not we infer from the wooden Chalil of Moshe Rabeinu to permit wooden Kelei Shares.
2. This would seem to be based on whether Shir is primarily with a Keli (in which case we would learn from Moshe's Chalil) or by mouth (and the Chalil is not Avodah).

(b) No, they could both hold that Shir is with a Keli and argue over whether we may apply a fixed source (Moshe's Chalil needed to be wood) to an unrestricted application (other Kelei Shares).
(c) Alternately, they could both hold that Shir is with the mouth and that we do not learn from a fixed source and still argue whether Menorah informs other Keilim through Kelal u'Frat or Rov u'Miut.

1. Rebbi would learn Kelal u'Frat U'chlal (and all Keilim must be metal, akin to the Menorah).
2. R. Yosi would learn Rov u'Miut u'Rov (and Keilim may be made of any material except Cheres).