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Nedarim, 60

1) "GIDULEI GIDULIN"

QUESTION: The Gemara cites a proof that even in the case of a "Davar she'Zar'o Kalah" (when replanted in the ground, the original fruit or seed decomposes when it produces additional growth), the Gidulin are not Mevatel the Ikar. The proof is from the Mishnah that says that "Gidulei Gidulin" (the growth that grows from the growth of the original fruit) of Tevel are Mutar, but they are not Mevatel the Ikar. The Gemara asks why should they not be Mevatel the Ikar, if, according to Rebbi Yanai, the Gidulin of Heter are Mevatel the Ikar?

REBBI AKIVA EIGER questions the Gemara's proof. He asks that the Mishnah is discussing Tevel, which is a "Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin," like the Gemara says earlier (58a). If so, it is clear why the Ikar does not become Batel, because the Ikar is Tevel, which is a "Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin" which does not become Batel! The Gemara itself answers a similar question in this manner. The Gemara (59a) asks why is it that with regard to Neder, "even the Gidulei Gidulin are Asur" and are not Batel. The Gemara there answers that a Neder is a "Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin" and thus the Isur cannot become Batel. The Gemara should give the same answer here with regard to Tevel!

ANSWERS:

(a) The SHALMEI NEDARIM answers based on a Ran in Avodah Zarah (73b) who writes that Tevel is only considered a "Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin" when the owner has other Tevel from which to separate Ma'aser for the first batch of Tevel ("mi'Makom Acher"). He cannot separate Ma'aser from within the Tevel itself because it is a mixture of fruits that are Chayav and fruits that are Patur, and he might be separating "Min ha'Petur Al ha'Chiyuv." Hence, when he does not have other Tevel available from which to separate Ma'aser on behalf of this Tevel, it is not a "Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin."

Thus, the Gemara is asking why does the Mishnah say unequivocally that Gidulei Gidulin are Asur? They should only be Asur if there is other Tevel from which one can separate Ma'aser on behalf of this Tevel. Otherwise, it should be Batel and be Mutar. (According to this, however, the Gemara's explanation of our Mishnah regarding Nedarim is not so clear. The Gemara answers that a Neder is not Batel because it is a "Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin." The Mishnah, though, implies that it is *never* Batel -- even if he cannot find someone to be Matir the Neder! It could be that there does not exist a situation in which one cannot find someone to be Matir his Neder.)

(b) We discussed earlier (see Insights to 59b) that a "Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin" *will* be Batel when a person performs an action to be Mevatel it. When the Gemara says that Gidulei Gidulin of a Neder are Asur, it is referring to Gidulin that grew by themselves; the person did not plant the item in order to be Mevatel it. In contrast, the Mishnah that says that Gidulin of Tevel are Mutar is discussing a case where one planted the fruit in order to be Mevatel the Tevel. Similarly, the case of Gidulin of Terumah is a case where one planted the fruit in order to be Mevatel the Terumah. That is why, in the case of Gidulin of Tevel, the Gemara gives a different reason, other than "Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin," for why it is not Batel.

(c) The RASHASH answers that the Mishnah in Terumos that says that in the case of a "Davar she'Ein Zar'o Kalah," even the Gidulei Gidulin are Asur, is not referring only to the previously mentioned Halachah of Tevel, but it is also referring to Terumah which is discussed in the Mishnah there earlier. It is saying that Gidulei Gidulin of a fruit of Terumah that is a "Davar she'Ein Zar'o Kalah" is not Batel. Terumah is not a "Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin," and that is why the Gemara is asking that it should be Batel.

QUESTIONS: The Mishnah says that when a person makes a Neder prohibiting wine for "this week" ("Shabbos Zu"), he is prohibited from wine the entire week, and "Shabbos *she'Avrah*." Similarly, when a person prohibits wine on himself for "this Shemitah cycle" ("Shavu'a Zeh"), he is prohibited from wine for the entire Shemitah cycle, and "Shevi'is *she'Avrah*."

On the other hand, when a person makes a Neder prohibiting wine for "this month," he is prohibited from wine for the entire month, and "Rosh Chodesh *l'ha'Ba*." Similarly, when a person makes a Neder prohibiting wine for "this year," he is prohibited from wine until the end of the year, and "Rosh Hashanah *l'Asid la'Vo*."

The Rishonim cite two explanations for the Mishnah's words about the status of Shabbos, Shevi'is, Rosh Chodesh, and Rosh Hashanah. The first explanation is that the Neder was made in the middle of the week, month, year, or Shemitah cycle, and the Mishnah is discussing the status of the Shabbos (or Rosh Chodesh, Rosh Hashanah, or Shemitah year) at the *end* of that time period. The Mishnah is saying that the Shabbos day at the end of the week, and the Shemitah year at the end of the cycle, belong to the preceding time period and thus they are also included in the Neder. In contrast, the Rosh Chodesh at the end of the month of the person's Neder, and the Rosh Hashanah at the end of the year of the person's Neder, belong to the *following* year and thus they are not included in the Neder, and the person is permitted to drink wine on those days at the end of the time period of his Neder. The RAN and ROSH prefer this explanation.

The second explanation agrees that Shabbos and Shemitah belong to the previous time period or cycle, while Rosh Chodesh and Rosh Hashanah belong to the following cycle. However, the second explanation interprets the case of the Mishnah differently. The person made the Neder *on* Shabbos itself, saying that wine is prohibited on himself "this week." Similarly, in the other cases of the Mishnah, the person made the Neder *during* the Shemitah year, or *on* Rosh Chodesh, or *on* Rosh Hashanah.

The Mishnah is saying that the person is prohibited from wine not only during the following six days, but he is also prohibited on the day of Shabbos as well, even though "Shabbos she'Avrah" -- even though "Shabbos normally belongs to the previous week." The same applies for a Neder made during the Shemitah; he is prohibited during the Shemitah year, as well as for the incoming Shemitah cycle (the following six years), even though the Shemitah year normally belongs to the previous cycle.

With regard to Rosh Chodesh and Rosh Hashanah, the person made the Neder on Rosh Chodesh or on Rosh Hashanah, prohibiting himself from wine for the upcoming month or year. He is not only prohibited from wine throughout the coming month (or year), but he is also prohibited on the day of Rosh Chodesh (or Rosh Hashanah) as well, on which he made his Neder, because that day belongs to the following time period.

Although this explanation fits slightly better into the wording of the Gemara on 60b (first, because the Gemara is more justified in asking "it is obvious" that he is prohibited on the day he makes the Neder, and second, because when the Gemara answers that the Mishnah is teaching about a case of "Chodesh Chaser" (a 29-day month), it is referring to the month which he is including in his Neder, and it does not mean the month that follows the month of the Neder. Also, the Girsa printed in our Gemara supports this explanation (line 12, "v'Lo Litsar" as opposed to "v'Litsar" -- see RAN)). Nevertheless, the Rishonim reject this explanation and prefer the first one.

There are a number of strong questions on this second explanation.

(a) The RAN asks that the Gemara in Rosh Hashanah (12b) says that if someone makes a Neder prohibiting his friend from deriving Hana'ah from him "for the year," he is only prohibited until the end of that year, even if the Neder was made on the twenty-ninth day of Elul. Why, then, should we say that if one makes a Neder on Shabbos, he is prohibited throughout the week that follows? He should be prohibited only on Shabbos, and the following week he should be permitted to drink wine, since Shabbos is the end of the week (like the twenty-ninth day of Elul is the end of the year)!

(b) The KEREN ORAH asks that the Gemara (60b) -- according to the Girsa that this second explanation has in the Gemara -- says that we might have thought that if a person made a Neder on the first day of a two-day Rosh Chodesh, which is the thirtieth day of the preceding month (such as the first day of Rosh Chodesh Elul, which is the thirtieth day of Av), then he is not prohibited on that day but only on the days of the following month. The Mishnah therefore teaches that people call the thirtieth day of the month "Rosh Chodesh," and therefore that day is also included in the prohibition of the following month.

If the thirtieth day of the month is part of the previous month, then why should one be permitted on that day and prohibited the following month? On the contrary -- he should be *prohibited* on that day and *permitted* the following month (like the Gemara in Rosh Hashanah says)!

A similar question can be asked on the MEFARESH, who explains the Mishnah with the second explanation. The Mefaresh later (61a, DH Chamishim) explains that according to this explanation, when the Gemara asks about the status of the Yovel year, asking whether it is included together with the previous years or with the following years, it means that when a person makes a Neder on the Yovel year, do we say that he is prohibited on this year and the following years, or do we say that he is permitted on this year (and prohibited on the following years) since the Yovel year is the last of the preceding fifty-year cycle and the Isur of his Neder starts only on the following Yovel cycle. Although this is consistent with what the Gemara says concerning Rosh Chodesh, that if the first day of Rosh Chodesh is not part of the following month he would be *permitted* on that day, nevertheless the same question on that Gemara may be asked here, on what the Mefaresh writes concerning the case of Yovel: why should he not be prohibited on the Yovel year on which he made his Neder?

ANSWERS:

(a) There is a clear distinction between a Neder made on the twenty-ninth day of Elul, and a Neder made on Shabbos or the first day of Rosh Chodesh or on a Yovel year. The twenty-ninth day of Elul does not demarcate the end of a year anymore than the first day of Elul. It is a normal day like any other day. It just happens to immediately precede Rosh Hashanah. If one made a Neder on the twenty-ninth of Elul and said "this year," he cannot be referring to the following year that starts on Rosh Hashanah (because that year is not included in the phrase, "*this* year"). He must be referring to the year in which the present day occurs, even though that year happens to end at nightfall.

In contrast, Shabbos -- which marks the end of the week -- is a day that is set apart from all other days of the week, as is inherent in its very name. As such, it is a day which marks not only that the week is ending, but that a new week is about to begin.

The same applies to Rosh Chodesh. Even if the first day of Rosh Chodesh is not part of the following month, the very fact that it is a special day of Rosh Chodesh with a unique name tells us that the previous month is coming to an end. Similarly, the Yovel year tells us that the previous fifty-year cycle is coming to an end. Since this day -- Shabbos, Rosh Chodesh, or the Yovel year -- carries with it the message that a new cycle is about to begin, when one prohibits wine to himself "this week," he might not be referring to the week that is ending, but to the impending week before him which is about to begin. Since it is more logical that he is creating an Isur that is meant to last for more than one day (since he did not say simply, "today"), we therefore assume that he is referring to the coming cycle and not to the cycle that has reached its end. That is why, in the case of Rosh Chodesh and Yovel, it is possible for him to be permitted to drink wine today and only prohibited during the following cycle, and why, when he makes a Neder on Shabbos, he is prohibited from wine during the following week.

Why, though, should he be prohibited from wine on this Shabbos (as the Ran asked)? With regard to Rosh Chodesh and Yovel, he would be *permitted* on that day (or year) and is only prohibited in the following cycle. The same should apply when he made his Neder on Shabbos or on a Shemitah year -- that day of Shabbos or that year of Shemitah should not be included in his Neder!

The answer is that "week" (or "Shemitah cycle") refers merely to a seven-day (or seven-year) cycle which consists of six days (or years) plus a Shabbos day (or Shabbos/Shevi'is year). Although the Shabbos is normally counted at the end of the six days, it can also be counted at the beginning of the six days (as long as it does not come in the middle of the six days). Since we know that the person making the Neder on Shabbos intends to prohibit himself from wine for the following week, we associate the day of Shabbos on which he makes the Neder with the following six days. This suggestion is borne out by the wording of the Ran and Rosh who clearly say that if one makes a Neder on Shabbos, he is prohibited from wine on Shabbos "and the following six days" but *not* the following Shabbos. We re-arrange the week, so to speak, to fit his Neder, rather than adding an eighth day of Isur to the Neder. (This will also answer the Girsa of "Yumi d'm'Kami Shabata," from which the Ran (60b, DH Shabbos Zu) brought further proof against this second explanation of the Mishnah.)

In contrast, when a person makes a Neder on the first day of Rosh Chodesh or on a Yovel year, we cannot re-arrange the month or the Yovel cycle to make this the beginning of the following month or cycle, because each day of the month bears a number. This day is the *thirtieth* day of the month and it cannot be re-arranged to be called the *first* day of the following month (if people do not call it that). The same applies to the Yovel year. Yovel is counted as year-number fifty in the Yovel cycle which the Torah tells us to count (Parshas Behar), and as such it cannot be called year-number one. With regard to Shemitah, though, the Torah never tells us that the Shemitah year has to be counted as the seventh year in the cycle and the following year as year one of the new cycle. The counting of the years is only for the Yovel cycle. Therefore, if one intends to make the Neder apply to the following cycle, then this year is not included as part of the following cycle and thus it will be Mutar.

60b

QUESTION: The Gemara asks whether a Neder made prohibiting wine for "a day" ("Yom) is like a Neder made for "this day" ("ha'Yom") and is prohibited only until nightfall, or whether it is like a Neder made for "one day" ("Yom Echad") and is prohibited for a twenty-four hour period.

Why does the Gemara not entertain a third, simpler possibility? When one says "a day," perhaps he means to accept upon himself an Isur for any day that he chooses, and not necessarily the present day or the immediate twenty-four cycle! He should be able to choose any day he wants on which to observe his Neder!

ANSWER: The RAN (3b, DH Bal Te'acher) writes that if a person says, "I accept upon myself to become a Nazir," he cannot push off the Nezirus to a later date, even though he did not say, "I am a Nazir," but he only accepted to become a Nazir later. The reason is because since he is not lacking any action to make himself a Nazir, for he needs only a verbal acceptance of Nezirus, the Nezirus takes effect automatically at the first possible moment, which is right now.

Accordingly, the same will apply when one says, "Wine is prohibited to me for a day (Yom)." Even if he says afterwards that he wants to choose some future day for the Neder to take effect, since he is lacking no action the Neder takes effect now. Hence, the only question of the Gemara is whether he intends to make the Neder only until nightfall or for a twenty-four hour period.