Ask A Question on the daf

Previous daf

1) A VOW TO BRING AN INVALID "MINCHAH"

(a) (Mishnah): If one said 'Alai to bring a Minchah of barley', he must bring a Minchah of wheat; if he vowed to bring (a Minchah) of (regular) flour, or without oil or Levonah, he must bring it of Soles, with oil and Levonah.
(b) If he vowed to bring half an Isaron, he must bring a full Isaron;
(c) If he vowed to bring an Isaron and a half, he must bring two Esronim;
(d) R. Shimon exempts, for he did not vow the way people vow.
(e) (Gemara) Question: Why is he obligated? Granted, 'Alai Minchah' obligates him, but 'of barley' is a retraction!
(f) Answer #1 (Chizkiyah): The Beraisa is like Beis Shamai, who say Tefos Lashon Rishon (we follow the first thing said, he cannot retract);

1. (Mishnah - Beis Shamai): If one said 'I am a Nazir from figs and dates', he is a Nazir;
2. Beis Hillel say, he is not a Nazir. (Most Meforshim say, he may eat figs and dates; Rambam forbids.)

(g) Answer #2 (R. Yochanan): It is even like Beis Hillel - the case is, he says 'Had I known that one cannot bring Minchas Nedavah of barley, I would have vowed properly (to bring it of wheat).'
(h) (Chizkiyah): He is obligated (to bring wheat) only if he vowed to bring a Minchah of barley - if he vowed to bring a Minchah of lentils, he is exempt.
(i) Question: Chizkiyah establishes the Mishnah like Beis Shamai, who say Tefos Lashon Rishon (i.e. 'Minchah') - it should not matter if he *tried* to retract by saying 'barley' or 'lentils'!
(j) Answer: Chizkiyah retracted (he also establishes it like Beis Hillel.)
(k) Question: Why did he retract?
(l) Answer (Rava): The Mishnah was difficult - why does it say that he vowed to bring a Minchah of barley, let it say that he vowed to bring a Minchah of lentils!

1. Rather, it says barley, because it is possible to err about this (Minchas Kena'os and the Omer are of barley), but no one would think that a Minchah can be of lentils. (This is like R. Yochanan, he erred, had he known that one cannot bring Nedavah of barley, he would have vowed properly.)

(m) (R. Yochanan): He is obligated even if he vowed to bring a Minchah of lentils.
(n) Question: R. Yochanan establishes the Mishnah like Beis Hillel, he did not know that one cannot bring Nedavah of barley - surely, he knows that one cannot bring a Nedavah of lentils!
(o) Answer: R. Yochanan addresses Chizkiyah:

1. He says, you need not retract because it says barley, not lentils - perhaps the Mishnah teaches a bigger Chidush!
2. Not only if he vowed to bring a Minchah of lentils, surely this he did not err (he merely seeks to retract), he is obligated (to bring wheat);
3. Rather, even if he vowed to bring barley, one might have thought (like R. Yochanan explains) that he erred, and he is liable only if he says that had he known he would have vowed to bring wheat - the Mishnah teaches, this is not so, Tefos Lashon Rishon (he is obligated no matter what he intended.)

2) HE MUST SAY "MINCHAH"

(a) Version #1 (Ze'iri): He is obligated only if he said 'Minchah of Se'orim (barley)' - if he said Minchas Se'orim, he is exempt, for we cannot say Tefos Lashon Rishon ('Minchas' is a construct form, it does not stand on its own.)
(b) Version #2 (Ze'iri): He is obligated only if he said 'Minchah' - if he merely vowed to bring barley, he is exempt, for we cannot say Tefos Lashon Rishon. (End of Version #2)
(c) Question (Rava - Mishnah): If he vowed to bring flour, he must bring Soles.

1. Suggestion: Even though he did not say 'Minchah', he is obligated!

(d) Answer: The case is, he said 'Minchah'.
(e) Question (Rava - Mishnah): If he vowed to bring without oil or Levonah, he must bring with oil and Levonah.

1. Suggestion: Even though he did not say 'Minchah', he is obligated!

(f) Answer: The case is, he said 'Minchah'.
(g) Question (Rava - Mishnah): If he vowed to bring half an Isaron, he must bring a full Isaron.

1. Suggestion: Even though he did not say 'Minchah', he is obligated!

(h) Answer: The case is, he said 'Minchah'.
(i) Question (Rava - Seifa): If he vowed to bring an Isaron and a half, he must bring two Esronim.

1. 'Minchah (of an Isaron)', obligates him to bring one Isaron; we should ignore his last words 'and a half' (since 'Minchah' does not refer to them!)

(j) Answer: The case is, he vowed to bring (a Minchah of half an Isaron and an Isaron):

1. 'Minchah', obligates him to bring one Isaron; we ignore his next words 'of half an Isaron', his final words 'and an Isaron' obligate him to bring another Isaron.

(k) Question: The Seifa says that R. Shimon exempts, for he did not vow the way people vow - since we are Tofes Lashon Rishon, and the first thing he said was 'Minchah', this is like people vow!
(l) Answer (Rava): R. Shimon holds like R. Yosi, who says that we consider all the words he said.

(a) (Mishnah): A person may bring Minchas Nedavah of 60 Esronim in one Kli;
(b) If he vowed to bring 61 Esronim, he brings 60 in one Kli and one in another Kli, for the most Soles the Tzibur brings on any day is 61 Esronim, when the first day of Sukos falls on Shabbos (39 Esronim are Nesachim for 13 bulls, four Esronim for two rams, 18 for 18 lambs);

1. It is proper for an individual to bring (at most) one less than the Tzibur.

(c) R. Shimon: The Nesachim of different consistencies (e.g. Niskei Kevasim have less oil per Isaron than other Nesachim) cannot be mixed together (even b'Diavad, one cannot say that the Tzibur brings 61 in one Kli!)

1. Rather, one may not bring 61 Esronim in one Kli because they cannot be mixed with the oil. (According to R. Eliezer ben Yakov, only one Log of oil is put into the Kli; according to Chachamim, there is a Log for each Esronim, but 61 is too much to be mixed in the Kli.)

(d) Chachamim: It is unreasonable to say that 60 can be mixed, but 61 cannot be mixed!
(e) R. Shimon: All Shi'urim that Chachamim fixed are like this!

1. (We expound that a Mikvah must contain enough water to envelop an (average) person's entire body, Chachamim said that this is the volume of one Amah long by one Amah wide by three Amos tall, i.e. 40 Sa'im.) We say that a person can immerse in 40 Sa'im, but not in a drop less than 40 Sa'im!

(f) (Gemara) Question: What is the source that if one vowed to bring 61 Esronim, he brings 60 in one Kli and one in another Kli?
(g) Answer #1 (R. Yehudah): The most the Tzibur brings on any day is 61 Esronim, when the first day of Sukos is on Shabbos - it is proper for an individual to bring (at most) one less than the Tzibur.
(h) R. Shimon: The Nesachim of lambs are thicker (have less oil) than those of bulls or rams (they cannot be mixed together!) Some Nesachim (i.e. of the morning Tamid) must be mixed in the morning, some (i.e. of the afternoon Tamid) must be mixed in the afternoon! (Really, all could be mixed *individually* in the morning, but all could not be put in one Kli, for part of the Nesachim (i.e. of the morning Tamid) must be offered in the morning, part (i.e. of the afternoon Tamid) must be offered in the afternoon.)
(i) R. Yehudah: How do you answer?
(j) Answer #2 (R. Shimon): "V'Chol Minchah Belulah ba'Shemen" - a Minchah must be (small enough to be) mixable.

(a) R. Yehudah: Sixty can be mixed, but 61 cannot be mixed?!
(b) R. Shimon: All Shi'urim that Chachamim fixed are like this!

1. We say that a person can immerse in 40 Sa'im, but not in a drop less than 40 Sa'im!
2. (Food is Mekabel Tum'ah if it is the amount that can be swallowed at once.) The volume of an egg is Mekabel Tum'ah, a drop less is not Mekabel Tum'ah!
3. Fabric three Tefachim by three Tefachim (is fitting to sit on, it) is Mekabel Tum'as Medras, a drop less is not Mekabel Tum'as Medras!

(c) Question: Even if 61 cannot be mixed, it should be Kosher!

1. (Mishnah): If a Minchah was not mixed, it is Kosher.

(d) Answer (R. Zeira): If a Minchah could have been mixed, mixing is not Me'akev; if it could not have been mixed, (e.g. it is too big), mixing is Me'akev.
(e) (Rav Bivi): A case occurred, Rebbi's mule died, Chachamim measured whether or not a Revi'is of blood came out (a Revi'is has Tum'as Neveilah, since it could congeal to a k'Zayis.)
(f) Question #1 (R. Yitzchak bar Bisna - Beraisa): R. Yehoshua and R. Yehoshua ben Beseira testified that blood of a Neveilah is Tahor.
(g) Question #2 (R. Yitzchak bar Bisna - Beraisa - R. Yehoshua ben Beseira): A case occurred, they were killing wild asses (Rashi; R. Gershom - herds of animals) to feed to the king's lions, Olei Regalim were up to their knees in blood, Chachamim did not comment (even though the Olim would enter the Mikdash and eat Kodshim!)
(h) Rav Bivi was silent.
(i) Rav Zerika: You should have answered!
(j) Rav Bivi: I am not settled enough to answer - I must buy bread each day from a baker!

1. (R. Chanin): "V'Hayu Chayecha Telu'im Lecha mi'Neged" - this is one who must buy grain each year (he worries lest he will not have money to buy grain next year);
2. "U'Fachadta Laylah v'Yomam" - this is one who buy grains each week;
3. "V'Lo Sa'amin b'Chayecha" - this is one who buys bread each day from a baker.