Ask A Question on the daf

Previous daf

1) IS ZERIKAH NEEDED FOR KIDUSH?

(a) (Beraisa): The two lambs are Mekadesh only through slaughter:

1. If they were slaughtered Lishmah and Zerikah was Lishmah, they are Mekadesh the bread;
2. If slaughter and Zerikah were Lo Lishmah, they are not Mekadesh;
3. Rebbi says, if slaughter was Lishmah and Zerikah was Lo Lishmah, the bread is Kadosh and not Kadosh (this will be explained);
4. R. Elazar b'Rebbi Shimon says, it is not Kadosh unless slaughter and Zerikah were both Lishmah.

(b) Question: What is Rebbi's reason?
(c) Answer: "V'Es ha'Ayil Ya'aseh *Zevach* Shelamim la'Sh-m Al Sal ha'Matzos" - this teaches that slaughter is Mekadesh (Lachmei Nazir, we learn Shtei ha'Lechem from them.)
(d) R. Elazar b'Rebbi Shimon learns from "Ya'aseh" - all the Asiyos (actions, i.e. including Zerikah) are Mekadesh.
(e) Question: How does Rebbi expound "Ya'aseh"?
(f) Answer: Had it said 'Zevach Ya'aseh', Rebbi would agree (even after Zevichah, other actions are needed);

1. However, it says "Ya'aseh Zevach", teaching that the crucial action is slaughter.

(g) Question: How does R. Elazar expound Zevach?
(h) Answer: That teaches R. Yochanan's law:

1. (R. Yochanan): All agree that there must be bread (Tosfos - in the Azarah) at the time of slaughter.

(i) Question: What does it mean 'The bread is Kadosh and not Kadosh?'
(j) Answer #1 (Abaye): It is Kadosh, but not fully Kadosh;
(k) Answer #2 (Rava): It is Kadosh, but it is not permitted (to Kohanim.)
(l) Question: (Abaye agrees that it is not permitted to Kohanim -) what is the difference between these answers?
(m) They argue whether or not it is Tofes (transfers its Kedushah to) Pidyono (money used to redeem it):

1. Version #1 (Rashi): Abaye holds that it is Tofes Pidyono (it only has Kedushas Damim (monetary Kedushah), it can be redeemed), Rava holds that it is not (it has Kedushas ha'Guf (intrinsic Kedushah).)
2. Version #2 (Tosfos): Abaye holds that it is not Tofes Pidyono (for its Kedushah is weak), Rava holds that it is.

(n) Question: We understand according to Rava, Rebbi and R. Elazar argue about whether or not it is not Tofes Pidyono (R. Elazar says that it is (Rashi; Tosfos - not));

1. But according to Abaye, what do they argue about? (Rebbi says that it is (Rashi; Tosfos - not) Tofes Pidyono, all the more so R. Elazar, who says that it is less Kadosh!)

(o) Answer: Rebbi holds that it is Nifsal if it leaves the Azarah, R. Elazar holds that it is not.

(a) Question (Rav Shmuel bar Rav Yitzchak): If Kivsei Atzeres were slaughtered Lishmah and Zerikah was Lo Lishmah, may the bread be eaten?

1. Question: According to which Tana does he ask?

i. He does not ask according to R. Elazar, who says that Zerikah is Mekadesh (surely, it may not be eaten!)
ii. He does not ask according to Rebbi - Abaye and Rava agree that Rebbi forbids eating it!

2. Answer: He asks according to R. Akiva:

i. (R. Yirmeyah bar Aba's father - Beraisa - R. Eliezer): If Shtei ha'Lechem left the Azarah between slaughter and Zerikah of the two lambs, and Zerikah was with intent Chutz li'Zmano, the bread is not Pigul;
ii. R. Akiva says, it is Pigul.

3. (Rav Sheshes): These Tana'im hold like Rebbi, who says that slaughter is Mekadesh;

i. Each is as he holds elsewhere - R. Eliezer holds that Zerikah does not take effect on Yotzei, R. Akiva holds that it does:

ii. (Mishnah - R. Eliezer): If Eimurim of Kodshim Kalim left the Azarah before Zerikah, one is not liable for them for the following - Me'ilah, Pigul, Nosar and Tamei;
iii. R. Akiva says, all of these apply to them.

4. Formulation of Question (a): Just like Zerikah Chutz li'Zmano is Mefagel the bread as if it was Kosher (even though it was Yotzei; some texts say, as if it was meat), Zerikah Lo Lishmah permits the bread (as if it was Kosher/meat);
5. Or, perhaps we consider it to be Kosher (or meat) to be stringent, not to be lenient!

(b) Question (Rav Papa): We need not say that R. Eliezer and R. Akiva argue about Zerikah at a time when Shtei ha'Lechem are outside;

1. Perhaps all agree that it does not take effect, they argue when they were returned to the Azarah before Zerikah;
2. R. Eliezer holds like Rebbi, who says that slaughter is Mekadesh, they were Nifsalim through Yotzei (even according to Abaye, therefore Pigul cannot apply to them);
3. R. Akiva holds like R. Elazar b'Rebbi Shimon, who says that slaughter is not Mekadesh, they were not Nifsalim through Yotzei (therefore they can become Pigul.)

(c) Objection: We cannot explain this way!

1. We can say that R. Akiva holds like Rebbi - slaughter is Mekadesh, Zerikah makes Pigul;
2. But if R. Akiva holds like R. Elazar, slaughter is not Mekadesh, Zerikah cannot make Pigul!

i. (Rav Gidal): Zerikas Pigul (i.e. with intent Chutz li'Zmano) does not cause Me'ilah to apply, nor does it uproot Me'ilah (in situations where a Kosher Zerikah would):
ii. It does not cause Me'ilah to apply to Eimurim of Kodshim Kalim, it does not uproot Me'ilah from meat of Kodshei Kodoshim.

(d) Answer: We can explain like Rav Papa, for Rav Gidal was refuted.

(a) Question (R. Yirmeyah): If Kivsei Atzeres were slaughtered Lishmah and the bread was lost (the lambs are Pesulim for Kivsei Atzeres, for slaughter was Zokek -) may Zerikah be done Lo Lishmah (l'Shem Shelamim) to permit the meat?
(b) Answer (R. Zeira): No, we never find that something is Pasul Lishmah and Kosher Lo Lishmah.
(c) Objection: We do - Korban Pesach is Pasul Lishmah before noon of Erev Pesach, it is Kosher Lo Lishmah (l'Shem Shelamim!)
(d) Clarification (R. Zeira): I meant, we never find that something that was Kosher Lishmah and was Nidcheh, and is Pasul Lishmah but Kosher Lo Lishmah.
(e) Objection: We do - Korban Pesach was Kosher Lishmah on Erev Pesach, (if it was not offered) it was Nidcheh, after Pesach it is Pasul Lishmah and Kosher Lo Lishmah (l'Shem Shelamim!)
(f) Clarification (R. Zeira): I meant, we never find that something that was Kosher Lishmah, was slaughtered Lishmah, was Nidcheh and is Pasul (if Nizrak) Lishmah, but is Kosher Lo Lishmah.
(g) Objection: We do - Todah! (If after slaughter the bread was lost, it is Pasul l'Shem Todah, it is Kosher l'Shem Shelamim.)
(h) Answer: Todah is different, for it is called Shelamim (therefore, l'Shem Shelamim is Lishmah.)