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Prepared by Rabbi P. Feldman of Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
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Kidushin 80
KIDUSHIN 77-80 - Ari Kornfeld has generously sponsored the Dafyomi
publications for these Dafim for the benefit of Klal Yisrael.
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1) FOR WHAT DO WE RELY ON CHAZAKAH?
(a) (Reish Lakish): We only rely on children clinging to a
mother regarding Terumah, but not regarding lineage.
(b) (R. Yochanan): We also rely on it for lineage.
(c) This is as R. Yochanan said elsewhere.
1. (R, Chiya bar Aba, citing R. Yochanan): We lash,
stone and burn people based on Chazakah, but we
don't burn Terumah based on Chazakah.
(d) We lash people based on Chazakah - as Rav Yehudah.
1. (Rav Yehudah): A woman was established among her
neighbors to be a Nidah - her husband is lashed for
having relations with her.
(e) We stone and burn people based on Chazakah - as Rabah bar
Rav Huna.
1. (Rabah bar Rav Huna): A man and woman, a boy and
girl grew up in the same house - (we assume the
children are from these parents) they can be stoned
and burned for parent-child relations.
(f) (R. Shimon ben Pazi): It happened, a woman came to
Yerushalayim, with a boy on her shoulder; she raised him,
and had relations with him - they were stoned.
1. It was not known definitely that he was her son, but
he clung to her (as children cling to their mother).
2) CHAZAKAH OF TAHARAH
(a) (Reish Lakish): We burn Terumah based on Chazakah.
(b) (R. Yochanan): We don't burn Terumah based on Chazakah
(c) (Mishnah - R. Meir): A child was found by a dough; he was
holding a small piece of dough in his hand - the big
dough is Tahor;
1. Chachamim say, it is Tamei, because children
normally play (Rashi - in trash heaps, and becomes
Tamei; Tosfos - with dough, he probably touched the
dough).
(d) Question: Why does R. Meir say it is Tahor?
(e) Answer: He holds, most children play, a minority do not;
the dough has a Chazakah of being Tahor. We join the
minority to the Chazakah - this weakens the majority.
1. Chachamim ignore the minority; the majority
overrides the Chazakah.
(f) (Reish Lakish): This is the case in which we burn Terumah
based on Chazakah.
(g) (R. Yochanan): This is not the case in which we burn
Terumah based on Chazakah.
(h) Question: According to R. Yochanan, what is the case?
(i) Answer (Mishnah): There is a dough in the house, also
(Tamei) rodents and frogs (which are Tahor). Pieces of
rodents or frogs (we cannot tell which) were found in the
dough.
1. If there are more rodents than frogs in the house,
the dough is Tamei; if there are more frogs, it is
Tahor.
(j) Support (for R. Yochanan - Beraisa): (In doubtful cases
of Tumah in which the involved parties do not have
understanding that we can ask them what happened, the law
is, we assume it is Tahor.) In 2 cases in which the
parties lack understanding, Chachamim were stringent to
considered them as if they have understanding (so we are
stringent in a private domain, lenient in a public
domain) - a child and another case.
1. The child - the above case when he is by a dough.
(k) Question: What is the other case?
(l) Answer: There is a dough in the house, also chickens.
There are Tamei liquids in the house; there are holes in
the dough from pecking - we suspend the dough, we neither
eat it nor burn it.
80b---------------------------------------80b
(m) Answer #1 (R. Yehoshua ben Levi): This is only by white
liquids - but by red liquids, if there were drops in the
dough, this would be noticed.
(n) Objection: Perhaps they were absorbed in the dough!
(o) Answer #2 (R. Yochanan): By clear liquids (in which a
reflection can be seen), drops in the dough would be
noticed; by cloudy liquids, we suspend the dough.
3) SECLUSION OF MEN WITH WOMEN
(a) (Mishnah): A man may not be secluded with 2 women, but a
woman may be secluded with 2 men;
1. R. Shimon says, even 1 man may be secluded with 2
women, if his wife is with him; they may even sleep
together in an inn, since his wife will guard him.
(b) A male may be secluded with his mother or daughter, and
sleep with her without clothes;
1. When they grow up, they must wear clothes.
(c) (Gemara) Question: Why can't a man be secluded with 2
women?
(d) Answer (Tana d'vei Eliyahu): Because they are easily
persuaded.
(e) Question: From where do we know that seclusion is
forbidden?
(f) Answer (R. Yochanan): "If your brother, the son of your
mother will entice you" - only a maternal brother
entices?!
1. Rather, this teaches that a man may be secluded with
his mother, not with other women forbidden to him.
(g) Question: What is the simple understanding of the verse?
(h) Answer (Abaye): It teaches a Chidush - not only should
one not listen to enticement of a paternal brother, for
he hates him (because he decreases his inheritance) - one
should not even listen to enticement of a maternal
brother, who loves him.
(i) Suggestion: Our Mishnah is not as Aba Sha'ul.
1. (Beraisa): If a baby dies within 30 days - it may be
carried out for burial without a coffin, with 1
woman and 2 men, but not with 2 women and 1 man;
i. Aba Sha'ul says, also this is permitted.
(j) Rejection: Our Mishnah is even as Aba Sha'ul - at a time
of mourning, the evil inclination is subdued.
1. Chachamim hold as R. Yitzchak.
2. (R. Yitzchak): "On what will a living man Yisonen
(complain), he overcomes his sins" - even at a time
of Aninus (mourning), a person's evil inclination
overpowers him (unless he struggles to overpower
it).
3. Aba Sha'ul: The verse speaks of one who complains
about Hash-m's ways - "Can a living man
(justifiably) complain, did he overcomes his sins?!"
i. It suffices that a person is alive!
4. Chachamim learn from a particular case that we
cannot rely on mourning to break the evil
inclination.
4) SECLUSION WITH MORAL MEN
(a) (Mishnah): A woman may be secluded with 2 men.
(b) (Rav Yehudah citing Rav): This is only with moral men;
she may not be secluded even with 10 immoral men.
1. There was a case in which 10 immoral men took a
woman out in a coffin to sin with her.
(c) Support (Rav Yosef): Ten men will gather to steal a heavy
beam, they are not ashamed of each other.
(d) Suggestion: The following also supports Rav.
1. (Mishnah): We send 2 Chachamim with a man taking a
Sotah (his wife) to Yerushalayim to make her drink,
lest he have relations with her on the way.
i. We must send Chachamim, not commoners!
(e) Rejection: We need Chachamim so they can warn him (that
if he has relations with her, the water will not test her
- if not for this, even immoral men could be sent).
(f) (Rav Yehudah citing Rav): A woman may only be with 2 men
in the city - but on the road, 3 are needed, so when 1
needs to urinate, she will not be secluded with 1 man.
(g) Suggestion: The following supports Rav.
1. (Mishnah): We send 2 Chachamim with a man taking a
Sotah (his wife) to Yerushalayim to make her drink,
lest he have relations with her on the way.
i. We need a total of 3 men!
(h) Rejection: We need 2 Chachamim so they can testify (if he
has relations with her, that she may not drink; normally,
2 men may be with a woman on the road).
(i) Rav and Rav Yehudah were on the road; a woman was in
front of them. Rav advised that they must go in front of
her.
1. Rav Yehudah: But you taught that 2 moral men may be
with a woman!
2. Rav: Who says that we are moral? Perhaps only people
such as R. Chanina bar Papi.
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