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1) CAN ISUR BECOME PERMITTED? (Cont.)

(a) Deduction: If 'not stirred or covered' means that it was only stirred or covered later, 'it was stirred or covered' means from the beginning, and R. Yehudah forbids this.
(b) Question: Why is this - the milk is absorbed equally by everything in the pot, the piece it fell on never absorbed enough to receive Ta'am!
(c) Answer: R. Yehudah decrees, lest the pot was not stirred so well.
(d) (Beraisa - Rebbi): (I agree with) Chachamim when the pot was stirred or covered.
(e) Question: What does he mean 'when the pot was stirred or covered'?

1. Suggestion: It was stirred or covered later, but not at first.
2. Rejection: We showed that in this case, Rebbi agrees with R. Yehudah!

(f) Answer: Rather, it was stirred or covered from the beginning.
(g) Deduction: Chachamim permit, even if it was stirred or covered only later (and Rebbi forbids, like R. Yehudah) - Chachamim permit Efshar l'Sochto.
(h) Question (Rav Acha mi'Difti): Why must we say that they argue about Efshar l'Sochto?

1. Perhaps all forbid, and they argue about Min b'Mino!
2. R. Yehudah holds (like he holds elsewhere) that it is never Batul; Chachamim hold, it is Batul.

(i) Answer (Ravina): If we say that all forbid Min b'Mino, and they argue about Efshar l'Sochto (whether it was stirred or covered from the beginning or only later), we understand why Rebbi agrees with R. Yehudah in one case, and with Chachamim in the other;

1. But if they argue only about Min b'Mino (and also Chachamim forbid if he stirred only at the end), Rebbi should have said 'I agree with R. Yehudah in one case, and disagree in the other'!

(a) (Mishnah): One tears the udder to remove the milk; if it was not torn, one (who eats it) does not transgress (a Lav, to be lashed);
(b) One tears the heart to remove the blood; if it was not torn, he does not transgress.

(c) Version #1 (Gemara - Rav): (If the udder was not torn,) he does not transgress, and it is permitted.
(d) Question: 'He does not transgress' implies that it is forbidden!
(e) Answer: Really, it is permitted;

1. The Seifa says, if the heart was not torn he does not transgress - but it is forbidden;
2. For parallel structure, the Reisha also says 'he does not transgress', even though it is permitted.

(f) Suggestion: A Beraisa supports Rav.

1. (Beraisa): One tears the udder to remove the milk; if it was not torn, he does not transgress.
2. One tears the heart to remove the blood; if he did not tear it, he tears it after cooking it, and it is permitted.

i. Only the heart need be torn after cooking, the udder is permitted without tearing it!

(g) Rejection: Perhaps tearing after cooking helps only for the heart, but not for the udder (it is forbidden).
(h) Version #2 (Rav): (If the udder was not torn,) he does not transgress, but it is forbidden.
(i) Support (Mishnah): He does not transgress - this implies that it is forbidden!
(j) Rejection: Really, it is permitted;

1. The Seifa says, if the heart was not torn he does not transgress - there, it is indeed forbidden;
2. For parallel structure, the Reisha also says 'he does not transgress', even though it is permitted.

(k) Question (Beraisa): One tears the udder to remove the milk; if it was not torn, he does not transgress;

1. One tears the heart to remove the blood; if he did not tear it, he tears it after cooking it, and it is permitted.
2. Inference: Only the heart need be torn after cooking, the udder is permitted without tearing it!

(l) Rejection: Perhaps tearing after cooking helps only for the heart, but not for the udder.
(m) A Beraisa supports Rav according to Version #1.

1. (Beraisa): If an udder was cooked with its milk inside, it is permitted;
2. If a stomach was cooked with the milk inside (that the animal suckled), it is forbidden.
3. Question: What is the difference between them?
4. Answer: The milk in the stomach was gathered *after* it left (the mother's udder); the milk in the udder never left, it was never considered milk.

(a) Question: How do we tear the udder?
(b) Answer (Rav Yehudah): We tear it lengthwise and widthwise, and press it against the wall.
(c) R. Elazar (to his servant): Tear the udder, and I will eat it.
(d) Question: Why did he need to say this, the Mishnah teaches this!
(e) Answer (#1): He shows that he argues with Rav Yehudah, who requires tearing lengthwise and widthwise and pressing against the wall.
(f) (Some texts - Answer #2: One might have thought that the Mishnah requires tearing only when it will be cooked (in liquid, but not if it will be roasted).)
(g) Yalsa (Rav Nachman's wife): For everything that the Torah forbids, something similar is permitted:

1. Blood is forbidden, but liver (which is congealed blood) is permitted;
2. A Nidah is forbidden, but a woman that sees virginal blood or Dam Tohar (after childbirth) is permitted;
3. Chelev of a Behemah is forbidden, but Chelev of a Chayah is permitted;
4. Pigs (and Girusa, a Tamei bird) are forbidden, but there are Kosher fish whose brain (and tongue) have the same Ta'am;
5. A married woman is forbidden, but a divorcee is permitted;
6. A brother's wife is forbidden, but a Yevamah is permitted;
7. A Nochris is forbidden, but a Yafes To'ar (beautiful woman taken in war) is permitted;

(h) Yalsa: I want to eat meat and milk!
(i) Rav Nachman (to a butcher): Roast an udder for her.
(j) Question: But the Mishnah says that one must first tear it to remove the milk!
(k) Answer: That is if one wants to cook it.