Ask A Question on the daf

Previous daf

1) WHICH "CHELEV" IS FORBIDDEN?

(a) (Rav Asi): Strands of Chelev are forbidden, but one is not Chayav Kares for eating them;

1. Strands of Chelev in the kidney are forbidden, but one is not Chayav Kares for eating them;

(b) Rebbi and R. Chiya argue whether or not Chelev in the groove in the kidney is forbidden.

1. Rabah and R. Yochanan would dig all of it out; Rav Asi would only remove what covers the kidney.

(c) (Abaye): Presumably, Rav Asi is correct, for R. Aba taught that Chelev which is covered by flesh is permitted;

1. This is because the Torah forbids Chelev *on* the flanks, not in the flanks;
2. Similarly, it forbids Chelev *on* the kidney, not in the kidney.

(d) (R. Aba citing Shmuel): Chelev which is covered by flesh is permitted.
(e) Contradiction: But Rav Asi cited Shmuel to say that Chelev under the loins is forbidden!
(f) Answer (Abaye): When an animal walks, that Chelev becomes exposed.
(g) (R. Aba): One is Chayav Kares for eating Chelev on the Masas or on the Beis ha'Kosos -this is the Chelev on the Kerev (innards.)
(h) (R. Aba): If one eats Chelev of the hip he is Chayav Kares - this is the Chelev on the flanks.
(i) (R. Aba): Strands in the foreleg are forbidden.
(j) Objection (Rav Safra): Did the Torah forbid all meat?!
(k) Counter-question (Rava): Did the Torah permit blood?!

1. Rather, after cutting them and salting them, the strands may even be cooked in a pot (no blood remains.)

(l) (Rav Yehudah): One must scrape off the Chelev from the first Amah of the small intestine (after the stomach) - this is the Chelev on the small intestines.
(m) (Rav Yehudah): Strands in the flanks are forbidden.

1. There are five forbidden strands, three on the right side of the animal, two on the left.
2. Three of them branch off into two smaller branches (each), two of them branch off into three smaller branches (each.)

i. This is important to know regarding digging them out.
ii. If they are removed when the meat is warm, they come out intact; if not, one must dig them out.

(n) (Abaye): There are five forbidden strands - three are forbidden on account of Chelev, two on account of blood.

1. Strands in the spleen, loins and kidney are forbidden on account of Chelev; of the foreleg and jaw are on account of blood.

(o) Rav Yehudah bar Oshaya was peeling the Chelev off the top of the spleen for Levi, the son of Rav Huna bar Chiya.

1. Levi: You must also peel lower on the spleen!
2. R. Oshiya: Rav said, only the Chelev on the thick part is forbidden.
3. Question (Rav Yehudah bar Oshiya): But Rav Hamnuna taught, the layer covering the spleen is forbidden, but one is not liable for eating it!

i. Question: To which Chelev on the spleen does he refer?
ii. He does not mean the Chelev on the thick part - one is liable for it!
iii. Answer: Rather, he refers to the Chelev on the rest of it.

4. R. Oshiya: If he said so, I accept it.

(p) (Rav Hamnuna) The layer covering the spleen is forbidden, but one is not liable for eating it;

1. The layer covering the kidney is forbidden, but one is not liable for eating it.

(q) Question (Beraisa): One is liable for them.
(r) Answer: One is liable for the Chelev on the thick part of the spleen, not on the rest; one is liable for the top layer of Chelev on the kidneys, not the bottom layer.

(a) (R. Ami or Rav Asi): If Beitzim are barely connected, they are forbidden;
(b) (The other of R. Ami and Rav Asi): They are permitted.

1. The first opinion says, since they will never heal, it is as if they fell off, they are forbidden like Ever Min ha'Chai;

2. The second opinion permits - since they do not decay, this shows that they are alive.

i. The first opinion says that they do not decay because they are not exposed to air.
ii. The second opinion says that they do not heal due to weakness.

(c) R. Yochanan (to R. Shimon bar Aba): They are permitted, but you should not eat them - "Do not abandon the Torah of your mother".
(d) (Mar bar Rav Ashi): Beitzim of a kid:

1. If it was less than one month old, the covering need not be peeled off;
2. If it was over one month, they are forbidden if there is semen inside, if not they are permitted.
3. Question: How does one know if there is semen inside?
4. Answer: If inside there are red streaks, they are forbidden; if not, they are permitted.

(e) Everywhere that Rav Acha and Ravina argue, Ravina is lenient, Rav Acha is stringent, with only three exceptions, raw meat, Beitzim, and veins;

1. The Halachah always follows the lenient opinion.

(f) If raw meat is very red:

1. If it is cut and salted, it may even be cooked in a pot.
2. Alternatively, it suffices to roast it on a spit, for the blood will exude.
3. If the meat is over coals - Rav Acha is lenient, Ravina is stringent.

i. Rav Acha says that the coals help draw out the blood; Ravina says, they cause the blood to stay inside.

4. They argue similarly regarding Beitzim and veins.

(a) Version #1: If the head of an animal is rinsed and covered in hot ashes:

1. If the neck faces down, the blood will flow out, the head is permitted;
2. If the head rests on its side (the jaw), the blood will congeal, the head is forbidden.
3. If the nostrils face down:

i. If they are propped open, the head is permitted; if not, it is forbidden.

(b) Version #2: If the neck or nostrils face down, the blood will flow out, the head is permitted;

1. If the head rests on its side:

i. If the nostrils propped open, the head is permitted; if not, it is forbidden.

(a) (Rav Yehudah): There are two Gidim - the inner one (near the bone) is forbidden, one is liable for eating it;

1. The outer one is enveloped in flesh, it is forbidden, but one who eats it is exempt.

(b) Question (Beraisa): The inner Gid is near the flesh.
(c) Answer (Rav Acha): It starts by the bone, and makes its way to the flesh.
(d) Question (Beraisa): The outer Gid is by the bone.
(e) Answer (Rav Yehudah): In the place where butchers cut off the tail, there it is close to the bone.

(a) (Rav Yehudah): If a butcher removed the Chelev but left over k'Se'orah (the size of a barley seed), he is punished;
(b) (R. Yochanan): If he left over a k'Zayis of Chelev, he is punished.
(c) (Rav Papa): They do not argue - if he leaves over k'Se'orah, he is removed from his job; if he left over k'Zayis, he is also lashed.

1. (Mar Zutra): The k'Se'orah must be in one place, but the k'Zayis may be spread over several places.
2. The Halachah follows Rav Papa.

(d) Version #1 (Mishnah - R. Meir): A butcher is not believed
(e) (R. Chiya bar Aba): (At first, they said that the Halachah follows R. Meir;) they retracted to say that he is believed (for the Halachah follows Chachamim.).
(f) Question (Rav Nachman): Are people really more reliable than in previous generations?!
(g) Answer: No - originally, Rabanan thought that the Halachah follows R. Meir, that one must dig out the Gid, therefore, a butcher is not believed;

1. Later, they retracted to say that the Halachah follows R. Yehudah, one need not dig out the Gid, therefore a butcher is believed.

(h) Version #2 (Mishnah - Chachamim): A butcher is believed regarding the Gid and Chelev.
(i) (R. Chiya bar Aba): They later retracted to say that he is not believed.
(j) (Rav Nachman): Nowadays, a butcher is believed.
(k) Question: Are people really more reliable than the previous generation?!
(l) Answer: No - originally, Rabanan thought that the Halachah follows R. Yehudah, that one need not dig out the Gid, and butchers are believed;

1. Later, they retracted to say that the Halachah follows R. Meir, one must dig out the Gid. People were not used to digging it out, and would sometimes forget, so a butcher cannot be believed.
2. By the time of Rav Nachman, everyone was used to digging it out, no one forgot, so butchers were again believed.

(m) (Mishnah): ...And they are believed regarding Chelev.
(n) Question: The first Tana never mentioned Chelev!
(o) Answer: Indeed, the first Tana does not believe butchers about the Gid or Chelev; Chachamim believe them about both.