Ask A Question on the daf

Previous daf

1) REDEEMING MA'ASER SHENI ONTO GOLD

(a) We may infer that R. Yochanan is the one who says that Beis Shamai forbid redeeming produce onto gold.

1. (R. Yochanan): It is forbidden to lend a Dinar for a Dinar (this may lead to usury).
2. Question: To which kind of Dinarim does he refer?

i. If he forbids lending a silver Dinar for a silver Dinar - no one would say silver is not a currency with respect to itself (surely, it is permitted)!

3. Answer: Rather, he forbids lending a gold Dinar for a gold Dinar.
4. Question: According to whom is this forbidden?

i. If according to Beis Hillel - they say that gold is the currency!

5. Answer: Rather, according to Beis Shamai; they must say, it is never considered a currency (therefore, they forbid redeeming produce onto gold).

(b) Rejection: Rather, R. Yochanan says that Beis Shamai permit redeeming produce onto gold;

1. Loans are different - since regarding commerce gold is the commodity (with respect to silver), we considered its value to fluctuate - also regarding loans, it may not be lent Dinar for Dinar.

(c) Support (Ravin citing R. Yochanan): Even though it is forbidden to lend a (gold) Dinar for a Dinar, it may be used to redeem produce. (He explains the opinion of Beis Shamai, who forbid lending a (gold) Dinar for a Dinar.)
(d) (We conclude that Reish Lakish says that Beis Shamai forbid redeeming produce onto gold.)
(e) Question (against Reish Lakish - Mishnah - Beis Shamai): One may exchange a full Sela's worth of copper coins of Ma'aser Sheni for silver coins (to lighten his load for his trip to Yerushalayim);

1. Beis Hillel say, he may exchange half for silver, half he must leave as copper (lest the demand for copper coins in Yerushalayim will inflate their price, and the silver coins of Ma'aser Sheni will decrease in value).
2. Beis Shamai permit redeeming (produce) onto copper coins - all the more so, they permit redeeming onto gold!

(f) Answer: No - in places where copper is used, it is more accepted than gold.
(g) Version #2 (R. Yochanan or Reish Lakish): (In the Mishnah about converting silver into gold, Beis Shamai and Beis Hillel) argue regarding converting Sela'im to gold Dinarim - Beis Shamai expound "ha'Kesef" - the first money (onto which produce was redeemed) must be brought to Yerushalayim, not second money (on which the first money was redeemed);

1. Beis Hillel expound "ha'Kesef" as an inclusion, permitting second money.
2. All agree that we may redeem produce onto (gold) Dinarim.

(h) (The other of R. Yochanan and Reish Lakish): They even argue regarding redeeming produce onto Dinarim.
(i) (The following 3 questions are against the first opinion, that they argue about 'second money'.)
(j) Question: The Mishnah should rather teach that they argue by redeeming Sela'im onto Sela'im (both of silver)!
(k) Answer: If so, one might have thought that they only argue there, but Beis Shamai admits that one may redeem Sela'im onto (gold) Dinarim, for gold is currency with respect to silver - the Mishnah teaches Sela'im onto Dinarim, to teach that this is not so.
(l) Question (Mishnah - Beis Shamai): One may exchange a full silver Sela in Yerushalayim for (copper) Perutos;

1. Beis Hillel say, he may exchange half for copper, half he must leave as silver coins (lest he will not spend all of it this festival, and he will incur a loss due to corrosion, or a second moneychanger's commission if he re-exchanges them for silver).
2. Beis Shamai do not forbid exchanging silver for copper on account of 'second money' - all the more so, silver may be exchanged for gold, which is more important!

(m) Answer (Rava): The law in Yerushalayim is different - there, "V'Nosata ha'Kesef..." (you will spend the money on any food you desire - and Perutos are useful for buying food)!
(n) Question (Mishnah - Beis Shamai): One may exchange a full Sela's worth of copper coins of Ma'aser Sheni for silver coins (before going to Yerushalayim);

1. Beis Hillel say, he may exchange half for silver, half he must leave as copper.
2. (Beis Shamai do not forbid exchanging coins for coins on account of 'second money' - this refutes Version #2.)

(a) Version #3 (R. Yochanan or Reish Lakish): (In the Mishnah about converting silver into gold) they argue regarding converting Sela'im to gold Dinarim - Beis Shamai decree lest a person will delay bringing his Ma'aser money to Yerushalayim (until he has enough to redeem onto a gold coin);

1. Beis Hillel do not decree - a person would take the silver coins.
2. All agree that we may redeem produce onto (gold) Dinarim - since produce rots, one would not delay until he has enough for a full Dinar.

(b) (The other of R. Yochanan and Reish Lakish): Beis Shamai decree even regarding redeeming produce onto Dinarim.
(c) Support: According to this latter version, it is clear why the Mishnah used the words 'one may [or may not] convert" (l'Chatchilah, rather than "it is [or is not] redeemed," even b'Di'eved) - for mid'Oraisa, he can redeem in such a manner; according to the first two versions the Mishnah simply say that they argue whether the redemption is valid!

(a) (Rav or Levi): A coin can be used to make Chalipin (i.e. through handing over coins, the seller (or giver) transfers his object to the buyer (or receiver)).
(b) (The other of Rav and Levi): It cannot be used to make Chalipin.
(c) (Rav Papa): The latter opinion disqualifies it because a person relies on the mintage of a coin, and this is prone to be invalidated (the king may change the coins).
(d) Question (against the latter opinion - Mishnah): Gold acquires silver.

1. Suggestion: The Mishnah implies that gold acquires silver through Chalipin (for then, the silver is truly *acquired* through transferring the gold; if the Mishnah refers to Kinyan Meshichah, transferring the gold obligates the buyer to pay silver, but does not actually acquire the silver for the seller.)

(e) Answer: No, it acquires through Meshichah.
(f) Question: If so, it should rather say 'gold obligates silver'!
(g) Answer: Indeed, the Mishnah says that.
(h) Support #1 (end of the Mishnah): Silver does not acquire gold.

1. We understand if the Mishnah means Kinyan Meshichah - gold is the commodity, silver is the currency, therefore silver does not acquire gold.
2. But if the Mishnah means Kinyan Chalipin - both should acquire each other!

(i) Support #2 (Beraisa): Silver does not acquire gold: if Reuven sold 25 silver Dinarim for a gold Dinar, even if Shimon made Meshichah on the silver, he does not acquire until Reuven makes Meshichah on the gold.

1. We understand if the Mishnah means Kinyan Meshichah - silver is the currency, therefore it does not acquire gold.
2. But if it means Chalipin - it should acquire!

(j) Question (beginning of the Beraisa): Gold acquires silver: if Reuven sold a gold Dinar for 25 silver Dinarim, once Shimon pulls the gold, Reuven acquires the silver, wherever it is.

1. We understand if it means Chalipin, he acquires the silver, wherever it is;
2. But if it means Kinyan Meshichah - it should not say 'he acquires the silver, wherever it is', but rather, 'Shimon owes him the silver'!

(k) Answer (Rav Ashi): It refers to Kinyan Meshichah; it means, he acquires the silver, however it was stipulated;

1. If he agreed to give new coins, he cannot give old coins, even though they are better.
2. Question: Why is this?
3. Answer: The seller can say, he needs new coins because he plans to keep them for a long time.