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1) SIGNS WHICH CHANGE AFTER DEATH

(a) Question: What is the difference between the 2 possibilities?
(b) Answer #1: He was slaughtered in a marble house, and moved before dying.
(c) Answer #2: He was slaughtered outside, and did not move.
(d) (Mishnah): R. Yehudah says, not all men ...
(e) Question: Does R. Yehudah Ben Bava allow more time to identify the body, or less?
(f) Answer: A man drowned; his body was recovered after 3 days, and Rav Dimi of Nehardai permitted his wife to marry;
(g) A man drowned in the Diglas River, and his body was recovered after 5 days, and Rava permitted his wife to marry.

1. We understand, if R. Yehudah Ben Bava allows more time - these Amoraim hold as R. Yehudah Ben Bava.
2. Question: But if R. Yehudah Ben Bava allows less time - who did they rule as?
3. Answer: This is no proof - a body in water may be recognized for more time, it prevents swelling and distortion of the face.
4. Objection: But above, we said that water aggravates a wound!
5. Answer: When there is a wound, it aggravates it; when there is no wound, it preserves the body.

i. This only applies if he was seen right after removal from the water; but if there was a delay, he swells up and changes.

(h) (Mishnah): If a man fell into water, whether or not the water has an end (one can see the shore), his wife is forbidden;

1. R. Meir: A man fell into the great reservoir, and he came out after 3 days.
2. R. Yosi: A blind man went to immerse in a cave; the man leading him went after him. People with them waited until they surely drowned, and their wives were permitted to remarry.

i. There was another case in Asya of a man lowered into water; when they lifted him, only his leg came up. Chachamim ruled - if more than the knee came up, his wife may marry; if not, she may not.

(i) (Gemara - Beraisa - R. Meir): If a man fell into water, whether or not the water has an end, his wife is forbidden; Chachamim say, if the water has an end, his wife is permitted; if it has no end, she is forbidden.
(j) Question: What is the case of water with an end?
(k) Answer (Abaye): A person can see the end of the water in all 4 directions.
(l) A man drowned in the swamp of Samki; Rav Shilo permitted his wife to marry.

1. Rav (to Shmuel): We should excommunicate him!
2. Shmuel: First, let us ask him.

i. They sent to him: What is the law by water with no end? He answered: his wife is forbidden.

3. Rav and Shmuel: The swamp of Samki - is this as water with an end, or without an end?
4. Rav Shilo: Without an end.
5. Rav and Shmuel: Why did you permit the woman?
6. Rav Shilo: I erred; I thought, since the water is stagnant, it is as water with an end.

i. This is wrong - there are waves, and these could take him far away (beyond vision of the witnesses).

7. Shmuel: "Sin will not occur to a Tzadik (Hash-m didn't allow Rav to excommunicate R. Shilo unjustly).
8. Rav: "Salvation comes through great counsel".

(m) (Beraisa - Rebbi): 2 men were setting fish traps in the Yarden. 1 entered a hole to catch fish. The sun set, and he could not find the opening. His companion waited until he surely drowned, and informed his family of his death.

1. In the morning, he saw the opening, and returned home, where they were eulogizing him.
2. Rebbi: How great are the words of Chachamim, who said, water with an end - his wife is permitted; water without an end - she is forbidden.

(n) Question: Even water with an end, we should be concerned for a fishing hole!
(o) Answer: Fishing holes are not common in water with an end.
(p) (Rav Ashi): This that Chachamim say, water without an end, she is forbidden - that is only by a regular person. But if a Chacham died, she is permitted - if he survived, word would spread.

1. This is wrong - whether he is a Chacham or not, if he fell in endless water, Lechatchilah, his wife cannot marry; B'diavad, if she married, she may stay married.

(q) (Beraisa - R. Gamliel): I was once on a boat, and I saw a boat sink; I was distressed, for R. Akiva was on the boat. When I got to the dry land, I saw him learning.

1. R. Gamliel: How did you get to the land?
2. R. Akiva: I found a board of the boat; every time a wave came, I nodded my head to it.

i. Chachamim learned from here, if evil people come to a person, he should nod his head.

3. R. Gamliel: How great are the words of Chachamim, who said, water with an end - his wife is permitted; water without an end - she is forbidden

(r) (Beraisa - R. Akiva): I was once on a boat, and I saw a boat sink; I was distressed, for R. Meir was on the boat. When I got to the dry land, I saw him learning.

1. R. Akiva: How did you reach the land?
2. R. Meir: 1 wave carried me to the next wave, and the next to the next, until I was deposited on the land.
3. R. Akiva: How great are the words of Chachamim, who said, water with an end - his wife is permitted; water without an end - she is forbidden

(a) (Beraisa): If a man fell into a den of lions, we may not testify on him; into a pit of snakes and scorpions, we may testify on him. R. Yehudah Ben Beseirah says, even into a pit of snakes and scorpions, we may not testify - we are concerned that he is a snake-charmer.

1. Chachamim: Since there is no room, he steps on them, and they harm him.

(b) (Beraisa): If a man fell into a furnace, we may testify on him; also, if he fell into a cauldron of boiling wine or oil. R. Acha says, if he fell into oil, we may testify, since it burns; into wine, we may not, since it extinguishes the flame (when it splashes).

1. Chachamim At first it extinguishes; later, it burns.

(c) (Mishnah - R. Meir): A man fell into the great reservoir ...
(d) (Beraisa): Chachamim said to R. Meir - we cannot bring a proof from miracles.
(e) Question: What was the miracle?

1. Suggestion: If that he survived without eating or drinking for 3 days - but the Jews in Shushan fasted 3 days on Esther's command!

(f) Answer: Rather, he went 3 days without sleeping.

1. (R. Yochanan): If a man swears that he will not sleep for 3 days - he is immediately lashed, and he may sleep when he wants (i.e. since it is impossible, he took a vain oath).

(g) Question: What is R. Meir's reason?
(h) Answer (Rav Kahana): There were structures for him to sleep on.

1. Chachamim hold, since they were of marble, he would slip, he could not sleep.
2. R. Meir holds, he would be able to sleep for a short time.

(i) (Beraisa): The daughter of Nechunya the reservoir-digger fell into a reservoir. They informed R. Chanina Ben Dosa. The first hour he said 'Shalom'; also, the 2nd hour. The 3rd hour, he said that she has already escaped.

1. R. Chanina Ben Dosa: Who took you out?
2. The girl: There were 2 sheep, and an old man leading them.
3. Rabanan (to R. Chanina Ben Dosa): Are you a prophet?
4. R. Chanina Ben Dosa: I am neither a prophet nor the son of one - but I knew that since Nechunya gave his soul for this, his seed would not die through it.

(j) (R. Aba): Still, his son died of thirst.

1. "Around him is most Nisharah (stormy)" - Hash-m is exacting with his Tzadikim as a Sa'arah (hair).
2. R. Chanina: We learn this from "Hash-m is feared among the Holy; he is awesome among all around him."

(a) (Mishnah): Even if Reuven heard women saying, 'Ploni died' (Reuven may testify that he died); R. Yehudah says, even if he heard children saying, we are going to bury and eulogize Ploni;
(b) It doesn't matter whether the one who mentioned his death intended to testify; R. Yehudah Ben Bava says, if a Yisrael said that he died, we rely on this even if he intended to testify; if a Nochri said that he died, we rely on this only if he did not intend to testify.
(c) (Gemara) Question: Perhaps the children never went to the funeral!
(d) Answer (Rav Yehudah): They said, we are coming from the eulogizing and burying of Ploni.
(e) Question: Perhaps they buried an ant, and named it Ploni!
(f) Answer: They said, this many Chachamim were there, this many eulogizers were there.
(g) (Mishnah): If a Nochri intended to testify, we may not rely on this.
(h) (Rav Yehudah): This is only if he intended to permit; if he intended to testify, he is believed.
(i) Question: How do we know his intention?
(j) Answer (Rav Yosef): If he comes to Beis Din and says, Ploni died, let his wife marry -this is intent to permit; if he just says, Ploni died - this is intent to testify.
(k) (Reish Lakish): The Mishnah is a case when he intended to permit; if he intended to testify, he is believed.
(l) Objection (R. Yochanan): There was a case - Oshiya b'Rebbi said as you - 85 Chachamim argued against him.

1. Question: If he is never believed with intention - when is he believed? (The Mishnah implies that sometimes he is believed!)
2. Answer: When he speaks innocently (i.e. unaware of any legal consequences of his words).

i. A Nochri was saying, 'Who is from Chivoy's house? Who is from Chivoy's house? Chivoy died!' Rav Yosef permitted his wife to marry.

(m) A Nochri was saying, 'Woe to the soldier in Pumbadisa that died' - Rav Yosef (some say Rava) permitted his wife.
(n) A Nochri was saying, 'Who is from Chasa's house? Chasa drowned!'

1. Version #1 - Rav Nachman: Alas! Fish ate Chasa!
2. Chasa's wife got married based on hearing Rav Nachman say this - no one rebuked her for doing so.

i. (Rav Ashi): We learn from this - this that was taught, if a man seemingly drowned in endless water, his wife may not marry - B'diavad, if she married, she may remain married.

3. Version #2: Rav Nachman permitted Chasa's wife to marry.

i. He reasoned - Chasa is a great man - had he come to safety, we would have heard!
ii. This is wrong - whether or not he is a great man, Lechatchilah, his wife may not marry; B'diavad, she may stay married.

(o) A Nochri was telling a Yisrael: 'Cut fodder and give it to my animals on Shabbos - if not, I will kill you as I killed Ploni the Yisrael, because he refused to cook for me on Shabbos.'.
(p) Ploni's wife heard this and came before Abaye. He required her to wait until Chachamim gathered on the festival.