Ask A Question on the daf

Previous daf

1) HOW MANY SHENIYOS ARE THERE?

(a) Answer: These 2 (the wife of the brother of the father of the father, and the sister of the father of the father), since they are similar, are counted as one.
(b) Rav Hillel: In any case, I saw that they were listed as forbidden!
(c) Rav Ashi: If you saw that they were permitted, you would not rely on it, since Mar Brei d'Ravna didn't sign on it!

1. For the same reason, don't rely on what you saw they that are forbidden.

(d) (Beraisa - d'Vei R. Chiya): The 3rd (generation) from his son, daughter, wife's son and wife's daughter are Sheniyos;
(e) The 4th generation from his father-in-law and mother-in-law are Sheniyos.
(f) Question (Ravina): Why does he count his wife as the 1st of the 4 generations above her, but not as the 1st of the 3 generations below her?
(g) Answer (Rav Ashi): The generations above are forbidden because of her, but not the generations below her (they are forbidden because of himself).
(h) Objection: But regarding the son and daughter of his wife, which are forbidden because of her, she is not counted among the generations!
(i) Answer: Since we counted 3 generations below himself and did not count himself, we also do not count her among the generations below her.
(j) Question (Rav Ashi): The Sheniyos of R. Chiya - do they extend to all generations, or not?
(k) Answer #1(Rav Kahana): Since Rav (Daf 21A) listed only 4 that do not extend, we see that all others extend.
(l) Rejection: Perhaps Rav only referred to Sheniyos in that Beraisa.
(m) Answer #2: R. Chiya said, the 3rd/4th generations below/above are forbidden - we see, past that, no!
(n) Rejection: Perhaps, he means from the 3rd/4th and onward.
(o) Question (Rava): In Eretz Yisrael, they asked if Sheniyos apply to converts.
(p) Answer (Rav Nachman): Regarding converts, even Arayos are only forbidden so they should not say that they descended to a lower sanctity - certainly, there was no decree of Sheniyos!

1. (Rav Nachman): Regarding converts: maternal brothers should not testify for each other - if they did, the testimony stands; paternal brothers may testify for each other.
2. (Ameimar): Even maternal brothers may testify for each other.
3. Question: Why is this different than Arayos?
4. Answer: Arayos pertain to every person; testimony is received by Beis Din (and we are not concerned that they will err); a convert is as a newborn.

(a) (Mishnah): A brother from any place (i.e. mother) obligates his brother's wife to do Yibum or Chalitzah; he is as a brother in every respect;

1. The only exceptions are a brother from a slave or Nochri;

(b) (Mishnah): A son from any place (i.e. mother) exempts his father's wife from Yibum and Chalitzah; he is liable for striking or cursing his father; he is as a son in every respect;

1. The only exceptions are a son from a slave or Nochri.

(c) (Gemara) Question: 'From any place' - what does this come to include?
(d) Answer (Rav Yehudah): A Mamzer.
(e) Objection: This is obvious, he is his brother!
(f) Answer: One might have thought to learn a Gezerah Shaveh, "Achvah-Achvah" from Yakov's sons.

1. Just as there, they are proper - so too, Yibum is only with proper brothers - the Mishnah teaches that this is not so.
2. Question: Why not?
3. Answer: Since a Mamzer exempts from Yibum (if his father died without any other children), he also causes a widow to fall to himself to Yibum.

(g) (Mishnah): He is his brother in every respect.
(h) Question: What does this teach?
(i) Answer: He inherits him, and contaminates himself to help bury him.
(j) Objection: This is obvious, he is his brother!
(k) Answer: One might have thought, he does not make himself Tamei to bury him, since it says "To his close Sheiro (kin)".

1. "Sheiro" - this is his wife; "A husband will not contaminate himself among his people to defile himself" - some husbands make themselves Tami, some do not.

i. He contaminates himself for a valid wife, but not for a wife that is forbidden to him.

2. One might think, here also, he makes himself Tamei for a proper brother, but not for an illegitimate brother; the Mishnah teaches that this is not so.
3. Question: Why not?
4. Answer: The forbidden wife is standing to be divorced; this does not apply to a brother that is a Mamzer.

(l) (Mishnah): Except for a child from a slave or a Nochri.

1. This is learned from "The woman (slave) and her children belong to the master" (i.e. the children are slaves).

(a) (Mishnah): A child from any place exempts from Yibum.
(b) Question: What does this come to include?
(c) Answer (Rav Yehudah): A Mamzer.

1. "A son *Ein* (there is not) to him" - *Ayin* (look, to see if he any son, even a Mamzer).

(d) (Mishnah): He is culpable for striking (or cursing) his father.
(e) Question: "Do not curse a Nasi in your nation" - one who does the acts of your nation (the father of a Mamzer sinned)!
(f) Answer: As Rav Pinchas said (elsewhere) - in a case where he repented.
(g) Question: Can he really repent for this?

1. (Mishnah - R. Shimon Ben Menashaya): "The crooked cannot be fixed" - this is one who had relations with Ervah, and fathered a Mamzer!

(h) Answer: In any case, now he acts like your nation.

(a) (Beraisa): One who has relations with his sister, who is the daughter of his father's wife, is liable for both sins;
(b) R. Yosi Bar Yehudah says, he is only liable for the former.

1. Chachamim reason as follows. It says, "The Ervah of your sister, the daughter of your father or of your mother";
2. Why must it also say "The Ervah of the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father, she is your sister"? To say that one is liable for both.
3. R. Yosi Bar Yehudah says, "She is your sister" - your are punished for your sister, not for the daughter of your father's wife.
4. Chachamim require this verse to teach that one is liable for his sister who is the daughter of his father and mother.

i. This teaches that we do not punish from a Kal v'Chomer (even though one is liable for a half-sister, a verse is needed to punish for a full sister).

5. R. Yosi Bar Yehudah says, "Your sister" would suffice to teach this; "She is" is extra, to teach that the only punishment is for this.
6. Chachamim say, if not for "She is", one would think that normally, we do punish from a Kal v'Chomer.

i. Question: If so - why would the Torah have written "Your sister"?
ii. Answer: The Torah does write things which could be learned from a Kal v'Chomer.

7. R. Yosi Bar Yehudah says, if so, "She is your sister" should have been written in the other verse.

(c) Question: What does R. Yosi Bar Yehudah learn from "The daughter of your father's wife"?
(d) Answer: Someone that can be married to your father - to exclude a sister from a slave or Nochri, that cannot be married to your father.
(e) Question: Why not say it excludes a sister from a woman raped by his father?
(f) Answer: Rava's teaching shows that this is not so.

1. (Rava): "The Ervah of your son's daughter or daughter's daughter, do not reveal" - to imply, the Ervah of your wife's granddaughter is permitted!
2. Contradiction (Rava): "The Ervah of a woman ... and her granddaughter, do not reveal"!
3. Resolution (Rava): The former verse deals with extra-marital granddaughters; the latter, through marriage.